Martijn Faassen wrote: [snip]
So how can we have better discussions?
We can have better discussions by helping me.
How can you help me? Of course it helps if you agree with me. I realize that's frequently infeasible, but I certainly wouldn't mind. :)
If you disagree with me, I'd like you to try to understand my concerns as much as you possibly can. In addition, try acknowledge my concerns as much as you possibly can without feeling you're lying. This works beter than just rejecting them.
Chris McDonough pointed out to me that I didn't help in that discussion by not making my own individual concerns clear. I contributed to the problem by talking about abstract responsibilities instead of focusing on concrete needs of myself and people I know about. So: I actually *need* the zope.app information (and a well-tested zope.app) in transitioning applications (in Zope 3 or Grok) I work on the ZTK. As a Grok developer I also need that info to help transition Grok and Grok users to the ZTK. This way we can port Grok and our applications to ZTK and zope.app.* first, and then when the tests run, slowly change the imports to strip away zope.app.* dependencies. Like what we did with the ZTK itself, in fact. I'd like to share the burden of maintaining zope.app* with others. I hope those of you who want to improve the ZTK also will help in making sure zope.app.* doesn't suddenly break. I wasn't very successful in explaining all that before, so perhaps it's clearer in the personal. Regards, Martijn