Tres Seaver wrote: [snip]
The reality is that the zope.app.* packages don't fit the mission of the ZTK: they aren't widely-reusable libraries, but pieces of a particular appserver / framework. The other reality is that nobody is stepping up to do the work to maintain that appserver.
I agree. But I'm not talking about maintaining the app server. I'm talking about helping people to move away from most of those packages, or otherwise find ways to maintain them.
There is *not* BBB issue with dropping those packagse from the ZTK, because everybody who is currently deployed with them has a valid way to use them *without* the ZTK. Pushing the burden of maintenance of those packages onto the ZTK, instaead of onto the portions of the community who use them, reduces the viability of the ZTK for almost no gain.
I think the ZTK developers have a responsibility to this use of the ZTK just like to anyone else's use. Just stopping to test whether all of this works with the ZTK isn't fulfilling our responsibility. [snip]
Defining those upgrade paths is the responsibility of the various groups consuming the (new) ZTK: in the case of Zope2, the Zope2 maintainers have chosen to do the work to remove all dependencies on zope.app.* packages from Zope2, leaving Zope2 free to use a zope-app-free ZTK without any issues.
Maintaining a coherent set of versions of zope.app.* packages is a responsibility that we can share in our community. Dropping this responsibility into a black hole by suddenly stopping to do so within the context of the ZTK is not the right way forward.
For Zope2 we have covered the upgrade story already. Zope 2.12 uses its own KGS, which includes the entire set of zope.app packages in compatible versions. Let's please please please maintain that set of zope.app.* packages centrally. Zope 2 isn't the only consumer of these packages.
What set? Why do you think that any given set of them is worth maintaining? Grok uses some subset of them, while a Zope3 app uses a bigger set, but Zope2 uses none: why is Grok's set (or Zope3's) important enough for the wider group of ZTK developers to care about?
Because we have a ton of installed base out there and we have a responsibility to maintain backwards compatibility. If some people don't care about that it's fine, but I expect at least some measure of cooperation with those who do.
-1 to this change. I'm going to add the zope.app.* packages back to the ZTK until we've had a proper discussion about how, as a Zope community, we go forward with this. Delegating this responsibility *separately* to sub projects is just plain silly.
You are treading on very dangerous ground here: commit wars are not a good way to solve this problem.
Sure. Unilaterally removing a huge amount of packages from a shared KGS is also not a good way to solve this problem. Regards, Martijn