[Simon Michael, on Thu, 11 Nov 1999]: : :: What's the ideal situation from user's point of view ? :: <handwaving> :: I've heard smalltalk, particularly squeak smalltalk, described as :: "liquid" and "transparent", meaning you can change things from the :: application level right down to virtual machine and it's completely :: consistent. There are no steep jumps in the learning curve requiring :: a new mindset, language, etc. I'm also reminded of Lucent's inferno :: where /*everything*/is/in/one/access-controlled/namespace. :: :: For zope to be more like this (it already goes a long way), I guess it :: would be python all the way, with a single conceptually-simple :: namespace that is always available, from bottom to top. :: :: Python is too hard for some ? Keep a limited DTML as an alternative. :: But to python users we will say: forget dtml; use python, use this :: single zope namespace, and you can do anything you want, things will :: work as you expect. :: :: Is this (a) what we have already ? (b) attainable ? (c) unrealistic ? :: Comments welcome. This is a great thread. It reminds me of the agony of decisionmaking going on right now on the XML standards lists. Wrestling with these issues can be painful, but is necessary. I'm in agreement with the thrust of Simon's ideas, and have been for some time. I'm going to express my opinion, although I do so hestitantly, because I'm sure some folks may disagree violently. ;) It's only my opinion. Paul asked for someone to collate the arguments of this thread, which perhaps someone will have the time to do. But I think the crux is that Zope access maps into two areas - DTML and Python. Between the two there is a great divide. One of the benefits of this discussion thus far is that several DC folk have confirmed that bridging this gap is diffcult, no magic bullet is forthcoming this week or next. Newbies can install Zope and build dynamic web sites with it without learning Python, *to a point*. But Zope is built out of Python, was inspired by Python and benefits from its integration with Python to such a degree that I think the newbie should be encouraged and aided from the beginning to drill down and learn the language. Look at Vignette StoryServer, a very successful product. To do anything interesting with it requires that you learn, not TCL, but a strange hybrid of TCL. Why? Because TCL, by design, doesn't address the same problem domain that Python does and needed to be extended. This means that big web development projects under Storyserver can't just pull new developers from the TCL community, but need to draw from the much smaller StoryServer/TCL community. Python doesn't suffer from this problem. Python is Zope's secret weapon. It's such an easy language to learn, that Guido van Rossum has grant money to explore using it as the basis for a massive, national, federally funded Computer Programming for Everyone project. I believe that most people who come to Zope are looking for tools that enable them to do Web Wizardry, not just get a site up. If you're responsible for architecting a new site, learn Python. DTML is for your content managers. Don Porter says that he feels he's been misled. That's not good. That's a problem with Zope's message to new users. I think new users should be encouraged, inspired and exhorted to embrace Python from the gitgo and given help to do that. *Perhaps*, in the final analysis, it's a disservice to everyone involved to maintain an atmosphere of "Python Denial." If you want to be a Web Wizard with Zope, let's face it, you should learn a little Python. You'll be happy you did. If you've never ever programmed a computer before, then you'll be REALLY happy you did. :) <aside> Simon: Q. Why didn't Inferno kick Java's ass before Java got so much hype and attention? A. Because Lucent's CEO didn't even know it existed until well after the WWW got big. :( </aside>