Hafeliel wrote:
My thanks to everyone who took the time to reply.
Here's what I'm hearing:
[1] Many of you agree that the Zope Book is woefully incomplete. Paul, for example, was kind enough to point out that the Image class is a descendent of the Persistent class.
Woo, what a scoop. It tooks me a few minutes to find this out when I started playing with Zope...
I opened my Zope Book back up to see how I could have missed this, and as I expected, the book doesn't show this ancestorage. In fact, the Persistent class isn't listed in Appendix B at all.
[2] Some of you felt that it is acceptable that Zope's "complete docs" are scattered across the web. I disagree. The Zope Book should be complete if it's going to pretend to be the docs for Zope.
I've never seen a "complete" and up to date documentation for any software - open source or not. At least with Open Source projects you have the source code...
The docs for Python, for example, seem to be complete. You might have to surf around a bit to find an example that does what you want, but you don't have to dig into the source for Python just to find out what methods are available to a given class!
That's not acceptable IMHO.
Oh yes ? "not acceptable", huh ? Please, remind us how much bucks you paid for Zope ? Now go have a look at the licence fees for proprietary Web Application Servers.
[3] Many of you have attacked me personally. <sarcasm> Gee, thanks. </sarcasm> I am not a troll. A troll is a person who takes only a minute to toss a match into dry brush so he can watch the fire break out. I, on the other hand, am trying to create something. I'm investing my time by creating a wiki,
There's already a Zope wiki. (snip non-sens)
If you do not like the direction I'm headed, then by all means, do not follow. Stick with Zope and enjoy it, but I personally think that a light-weight alternative that doesn't protect us from doing what we want to do would be better.
You're still showing your ignorance and total lack of understanding of how Zope works. I have less that 10 years of programming experience, and was able to address *all* of the "problems" you're complaining about since my first Zope project (which I started 2 weeks after having done my first Zope install).
How big is a Zope install, 20M? I'm not at my home PC at the moment, so I can't check. I'm betting that all the good stuff Zope really needs could fit in 50k.
Lol. (snip)
[5] Several of you defended Zope by saying that it evolved to be the beast that it is. Frankly, that's a terrible reason to live with a mess. Sometimes it takes starting over to get going in the right direction.
Ever heard of Zope 3 ?
[6] You're right that I'm totally ignorant about Zope
I think there's not much more to say.
3. I've never played with it. I will try to make some time for that. However, my gripes with the original Zope is that there is too much. I really just want the Zope basics. Adding more to Zope will not make me happier.
That's why I'm pushing to making it an Apache module. Apache is wildly popular and used in a tremendous number of servers. It already does most everything, so why re-invent the wheel?
It seems that you are not only ignorant about Zope.
As for me, personally, I'm going to press on making a Zope alternative.
Python is known to have more web frameworks than keywords. Could it be possible that you're also ignorant of this ? (snip)
So follow if you dare, help if you'd like, but shout your insults at my back. I see no reason to stick around a community that treats me like this when I'm only trying to help.
You're not "trying to help", you are complaining about things you don't understand. If what you want is a Apache-integrated server-page system, you have mod_python + PSP. If you want a lightweight MVC framework, then either Django, Turbogears, Pylons or web.py are for you. Blaming Zope for not being what you want is just dumb. -- bruno desthuilliers développeur bruno@modulix.org http://www.modulix.com