(I combined the two posts into one) On ... , Paul Winkler wrote:
I wouldn't say that DTML is evil... simple DTML is very nice, it's just that *abuse* of DTML is evil and it's always tempting to add just "one more thing" instead of breaking it out into a script. And you can abuse ZPT pretty easily, too...
I agree, but IMHO, the Zope Book shouldn't start with DTML right from the beginning because it'd be easier for developers who come from traditionnal environments (ie. not web apps) to jump right in. Instead, it should show right from the beginning how to separate logic and presentation, just like ASP.Net does. Much less confusion :-)
The "Advanced Scripting" chapter in the online Zope book is a decent introduction to this kind of thing, although it's a lot more nuts-and-bolts than best-practices.
Yup, read that last night.
Since you say "procedural languages", I suspect what you really need is to read this: http://www.zope.org/Members/mcdonc/HowTos/gainenlightenment
Indeed, read that too before posting. A must-read for Zope newbies. +++++++ On ... , Dylan Reinhardt wrote:
But I would encourage you not to make a payroll system your first major project...
I agree wholeheartedly. Unfortunately, my dad's software in VB, which I intend to take over as he retires, is a total mess. So I have to start again from scratch, and I figured I should do it as a web app to reduce the cost of deployment and updates.
Read a good book on programming with Python (O'Reilly's Learning Python 2nd Ed. is my recommendation). Then read the Zope Developer's Guide (http://www.zope.org/Documentation/ZDG) at least three times. Develop a product that exposes a basic interface and can return functional administration screens using either ZPT or DTML. Give yourself at least a month or two to do all this.
I have already purchased "Learning Python", and will read the ZDG today. Combined with the New Riders book and possibly the (Zope) Bible, I should be able to build a prototype.
At the point where you're weighing issues more technically nuanced than whether DTML is evil (it isn't), I think you'll probably find a lot of help available for any ambitious projects you may be ready to take on.
The "DTML is evil" was a reference to one of the articles I found on Zope. Actually, as explained to Paul, I think it'd be a good thing to write an introduction to developers who come from procedural programming and don't know anything about web apps. My brother is heavy into ASP.Net, and I must say it's very nice because it separates logic and layout right from the beginning. As an introduction to web development, it's pretty good, but I'd rather use a non-proprietary tool. Thx much to both of you for your input :-) Fred.