Paul, I'm glad JPython based Zope is worth at least researching. I definitely need to do much "research" since Zope is my introduction to the web medium. Paul Everitt wrote:
Our position currently is pretty clear: servre-side Java is a bandwagon, but a pretty murky bandwagon. Joining all the others in that market doesn't seem like an "obvious" thing to me. Java still has a lot going against it (Microsoft, poor portability, speed) and so we're doing pretty well where we are now.
Zope is doing great, no doubt, but you guys don't seem to rest on your laurels either, so I'll chime in with a slightly different perspective on servlets! I think servlets have (to everyone's surprise) turned out to be the initial, most compelling use for Java. Everyone expected the platform independence to be the initial value-add of Java, but client-side Java was painful due to (as you point out) portability issues... mainly irreconcilable (for Java1) GUI differences. While Java2 addresses the GUI issues with new architecture, that whole issue was knottier than anyone imagined (architecturally). The great thing about servlets is that they only need to run on one machine which is controlled by the servlet provider. Zero portability problems. Zero performance issues (since you can install HotSpot which is reasonably fast, getting faster). Apparently, servlets are incredibly rock solid for servlet applications. While certain aspects of Java (e.g., client-side computing) are still currently murky, I believe what you were hearing about servlets was that they're already here. I suspect dovetailing with servlet support would be a definitively good thing, enabling people to grab existing (servlet) stuff and plug it into the awesome Zope framework hassle-free (plus Python servlets as desired :-) Also, supporting servlets naturally would eliminate any confusion that Zope is competing with Java as a platform. Java is so big and moving so fast, that many would dismiss something "new" which isn't riding the Java train (or isn't MS, I guess). Zope is doing great, but the confusion is still there. (I just proved to myself yesterday that I could still run JavaScript using Zope. Technically, a no-brainer, but I wanted to make sure I hadn't lost compatibility/options even if I don't necessarily need them now. :-) Java compatibility (servlets, applications, etc.) is a much bigger check-box item for a lot of people.
Server: Apache/1.2.5
Flux ;-). Seriously, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. I don't think everything needs to run Java, just where convenient and compelling.
Hmmm, do you feel like there is an onerous amount of C code without Python equivalents?
I don't know, just significant amounts of code. I'm going on impressions from reading the zope groups for the last 3+ months. I remember a thread that suggested JPython support was not immediately trivial. Since installing zope, I notice a significant number of C files. IOW, I need to do my "research", but I have a lot to learn about Zope before knowing well what to research.
Certainly, but I we'd also like to make sure about the goals of such an endeavor. Are the goals speed, portability, integration (e.g. with servlets or as a bean), etc.? Thus, while I'm not telling you to stop leaping, I'm also asking that you do some looking. :^)
Great. Goal for me would be seamless integration of object models with Java applications (servlets, beans, applets, etc.) to take advantage of Java libraries/Zope power. Leveraging 2 great technologies (Zope and Java) that go well together. Speed and hassle-free portability would be an ulterior motive to take advantage of the Java VMs.
I was at SPAM Houston for Jim Hugunin's first unveiling of those numbers. He confessed that they were (a) quite speculative, being based on the speculative pystone test, (b) on the horizon, meaning not here yet, and (c) all done on MS' VM. It was something like a five-fold drop when going back to the standard JDK.
Hmm, when was this unveiling? The MS VM was the fastest for some time. IBM's JDK1.1.8 VM and Sun's 1.2.x HotSpot VM are significantly faster than it now. I'd be surprised if there were a drop now at all. I would expect a speed up with either the latest IBM or the Sun.
Perhaps HotSpot will address it, but when will it be available on Linux? On FreeBSD? On Mac OS X Server? On Digital Unix or SGI?
Good points. I believe IBM has just released their JDK1.1.8 VM for Linux. That may be a good solution for Linux (albeit not Java 2 yet). Sun seems to be dragging a bit with support for Linux though which is admittedly annoying given the desirability of the JDK 1.2 support and speed of the Sun HotSpot VM. Apple seems to have no clue. They can't seem even to announce JDK1.2 support even for Mac OS X (which is largely UNIX). I don't know what they're thinking. They do have a solid (reportedly) 1.1.7+ VM now though. So the basic Java is there. FreeBSD, Digital Unix, and SGI, I don't know which probably means they have nothing so far. Your point is a good one. Clearly, there needs to be a performance solution where serious Java VM's are not available
Having a CPython and JPython/Servlet version of Zope -- boy, that would certainly make Zope pretty unique!
:-) Being able to choose between Python or Java, using an insanely great (sorry, watched the Steve Jobs keynote last night :-) application server. Yowza. I know I have to use Java, and it would be so nice to unite everything (applets, server, scripting) into one incredible whole. Cheers, = Joe = P.s., plus, Plus, I just think Java people would love Zope, but the lack of servlet support and all the features Zope has just seem to put it into competition with Java which can be confusing. Building on Java just seems so strong to me.