i haven't had time to read through the links, although i will once i get some more of that mystical free time stuff, but i wanted to clarify about PTK workflows. most of the existing workflow structs in PTK were doc based with simple workflows, but there has been a concerted effort to refactor PTK into Singleton objects which give abilities to all objects vs. the old method of inheritance for abilities. In this scenario workflow objects can be plugged into the architecture. Another item that gives support for complex workflows is the event/subscriber/publisher system being developed right now. check out the later half of the PTK archives for August to get some more background. if you want to influence the project, now is the time, make your voice/needs heard. Here are two useful diagrams from WFMC's white paper, "Workflow and Internet: Catalysts for Radical Change" ( http://www.aiim.org/wfmc/finalwp.pdf ). The first is a diagram of WFMC's reference model. The second is a diagram of workflow concepts. http://www.zope.org/Members/aboulang/wfmc1.gif and http://www.zope.org/Members/aboulang/wfmc2.gif Regards, Albert Boulanger aboulanger@vpatch.com