Hello, I have been "out of the loop" since 1.9 (got buried by Y2K just before 1.10)... I think that the Zope cauldron is something like the "frog in a pot" thing... If a frog is put in a pan of cool water, and that pan is warmed slowly... the frog will be boiled to death... On the other hand, if a frog is set into a pan of boiling water, it will jump out of the pan saving its life... I can say, without a doubt, that at this moment... Zope 2.0.0 is much nicer (from what I've read in CHANGES.txt), but... dang! I'm going to just have the mindset that "Start over"... This is not completely due to the changes from 1.9... It is mostly (IMO) due to the fact that I was a mere neophyte when I got distracted... the "Zope Zen" hadn't flashed more than once or twice for me... I could work some of the controls, but was frequently unable to "do what I wanted" cuz I didn't know the "incantation"... Having the source is also a mixed bag... Right now... I'm sorry, but I don't have time to do that... I'd dearly love to do that, but I can only pull (average) 1.5 all-nighter's a week... that's the only way I can fit it in... Also, I've discovered that some releases of some distributions (e.g. the latest Caldera), are Python 1.5.2 friendly (except I haven't located how to enable 'crypt', and just discovered this morning that threads are also no there)... It is not Zope friendly... (gets ImportError: No module named thread)... I've got work to do... and can't take the time to figure this out right now... The other guy I'm working with, didn't have the time to even try building Zope (also using Caldera)... but went straight for the binary release... (Even less likely to "read the source, Luke"). Also, if I recall... the Jedi's had to train pretty hard as I recall the story... I offer these priorities (my order, not DC order): 1. Knowing how to use Zope effectively is the most important... "Getting there... I know that I'm in trouble..." I need to go get all of the current docs (haven't printed any since 1.9 days... course I hope to find ---hint-hint--- some equivalent of a "changes" doc so that I'll not waste any time reading stuff I already have... only to find out that "Oh... that's old"... Maybe the "ZODB3 thoughts" papers of Jim's have become "here's what ZODB3 is"... (hope hope) 2-98 other stuff 99. Knowing the source exists and is available is the most important... Being able to build from the source is comforting to me... I very much prefer it... HOWEVER... I need to get work done... and so to accomodate #1... I'll use a platform-specific binary release. (Now, I refuse to use Microsoft anything... but from what I've read in the Zope list... it seems to me that just about anyone using Microsoft based systems is spending mega-bucks for tools, or relying totally on the binary releases)... So, in short... If I'm going to get work done... for now (Caldera wise), I'm going to rely on a binary release. What this means is I have very little motivation to "read the source, Luke", cuz... well, just say I wanted to "slip in" a print statement or two... I'm not going to do it... I didn't build it, so I'm not sure that I won't break it, and I don't want to reload it (am not allowed to due to time constraints, etc). 100-(x-1) more stuff x. Having the time to understand the source code that I am able build and use is one thing I am really looking forward to... after I "retire". Not sure I'll do it then either... Heck... I want to be fluent in things like Apache, sendmail, DNS, object brokers, etc, etc etc too.. Not sure what I want to completely grok at the source code level... Too many interesting paths... On a similar thing... I really enjoyed "Learning Python"... I think that having a similar "Learning Zope" would be wonderful! I'd buy it... Also, I think that Learning Python is a helpful addition (I have to try to train people too) as it is much less to "get" than were the other, more exhaustive/ing tomes... Not to mention that both IPWP and PLP are now significantly dated... Even Learning Python had some "datedness" to it, and it is a new book (1.5.2 was not yet final... so not fully reflected)... Andrew M. Kuchling wrote:
Martijn Faassen writes:
Just organize the documentation effort better. Our biggest need, I think, is an organization of the documentation infrastructure. Someone needs to be get pretty radical there -- ripping apart everything and putting it all together again in a better way. I'll definitely be around to give my help.
Reading the source code may not always help; some portions of it are filled with impressively cutting-edge Python technique; even Guido would have to go slowly.
-- A.M. Kuchling http://starship.python.net/crew/amk/ Think until it hurts. -- Roy Thomson
-- Cheers, --ldl ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- LD Landis ldl@HealthPartners.Com N0YRQ Voice 612/883-5511 Fax 612/883-6363 HealthPartners, 8100 34th Avenue So, PO Box 1309, Minneapolis, MN 55440-1309 Shape your life not from your memories, but from your hopes. (Borrowed) Still programming for the day-job... haven't yet gotten that Microsoft PR job -----------------------------------------------------------------------------