J C Lawrence wrote:
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I would much rather have "likely to be correct" answers posted to the list than no answers posted at all. If some level of confusion is the result of that, so be it. I'm sure the confused (of which I'm often one) can learn to ignore the "I haven't tested this" posts if they really need to.
This is only to underscore the fact that Zope is not ready for prime time. It goes beyond just posting untested results. Something like Perl or PHP would have definitive, known answers for most all issues. Resident experts are scattered everywhere. It is like taking your broken-down vehicle to a certified mechanic, and getting it fixed. MY OPINION The problem with Zope is, hardly anyone seems to know what is really going on under the hood (but hey, you're not supposed to need to know), and it is too often that it is left to anyone's guess why something doesn't work - or even why it in fact does work a certain way. No one is certified, and no one claims to be, either. It is like the wild west, too, because no one's work is sheriffed in a manner to maintain order. And there are plenty of enthusiasts setting up their homestead, willing to endure these hardships. (Can be pretty exciting, you know). I think only a hobbyist can maintain the excitement of enduring all the pitfalls, traps, and rewarding features that can be discovered. It is really like an adventure -- if you have the time and desire. But I am not a hobbyist, and to tell you the truth, I am just plain fed up. I am being sold a pan and a shovel while hearing claims of gold. Sure, there is gold - but no one is going to give it to you. **But the hype is that it IS being given to you.** That would only apply if you needed some simple things. Some things that fit the mold of what Zope can readily offer. Whoever you may be, I insist you stop hyping Zope to the point of making false and misleading claims, even if only implicitly. It goes from being simple-and-easy, to do-it-yourself-you're-on-your-own. It goes from being a well-thought-out system, to guess-the-syntax-today. It goes from being cross-platform-support to oh-we-don't-actually-use-IIS. It goes from having community-contributed-solutions to community-spread-bugs. It goes from open-source application server to oh-you-have-to-pay-for-THAT. It goes from you-don't-need-to-know-python to you-should-really-know-python. It goes from you-can-always-use-external-methods to you-shouldn't-use-external-methods. It goes from we're-ready-now to we're-working-on-it. It goes from reduced-code-management to increased-server-resources-management. ..etc! I am tired of the enthusiasm now, because on closer inspection, I have found plainly false and misleading claims. Even by well-meaning people. And it has to do with ignorance of how Zope actually works. But supposedly you don't need to know! I say baloney. All the enthusiastic things I have come across only really apply to a subset of the features I would actually need to implement, anyway. Sure, there are things to be excited about. But just because Zope exceeds by 1000% the capabilities of some commercial applications in a few areas, does not mean it does so in the other areas businesses rely on!! Besides the baloney, are the half-baked answers given as bread to eat. Instead of seeing well-measured, sensible analyses of this, I see people saying "so-and-so survived the slashdot effect, so it must be good", "haven't heard of any problems with high-traffic sites", "shouldn't have any problems", "FAST CGI is the way to go", etc., whereas Perens' site had almost no graphics, DC really DOES know of a high-traffic site having problems, the list is FULL of reported problems, and FAST CGI isn't supported on NT for free. And I could spend hours giving many more examples. I AM FED UP. And I am not the only one, either. And the few experts who are contributing their knowledge to the list are not making up for it all. There really is misinformation about the virtues of Zope abounding. Unfortunately, it is just misinformation. It really cannot do as many things as are claimed/suggested/hinted/implied. Some of the posts people make to help others are based on this misinformation. Zope is supposed to be easy and do all the work for me, so I can just drop in pre-made products/modules/classes or whatever. You know, assemble-your-own-site. Well, you really can't do that! Not easily. Not using all the capabilities I was hoping. Not in a reasonable amount of time. Yes, this is my opinion, but it is based on my experience. Reusability in Zope turns out, in many cases, to be no easier - and in fact, harder - than reusing code in Perl, PHP, or other languages where the system is being made by an expert in his field. It seems that, when there are problems in Zope, expertise is still required. But that seems to defeat the point of why Zope is being exalted. Zope is no better than any other system requiring an expert. Actually, it's worse. Zope framework seems too complex and changable to have any sort of resident expert to begin with. You'd have to know all the Products, etc., which are not held to any sort of standard. I may as well develop my own system than assemble parts of things with unknown, unpredictable surprises in store. Why am I saying this? To counter those with unbounded/misguided enthusiasm for something which is not worthy of it. And maybe to prevent some other people from turning sour after not keeping their cool when the claims turn out to be just a bunch of hot air. Zope may not be suitable for things more complex than weblogs and news syndication, and maybe internal workflow solutions. Zope can certainly handle such purposes with ease. Its XML capabilities certainly hold value. Among other things. But that doesn't make it a killer app. In any case, it seems to me that the posting behavior problem is related to the claims made about Zope versus the problems inherent to Zope, and the kinds of groups of people who have taken to using it with dedication. While DC may not be responsible for the misleading and /or clueless claims of Zope followers, their business will probably end up suffering for it in the long run. Comments? Is anyone else fed up? Guy N. Hurst