Well, I'd say that much of it relies on the kind of project you're doing, too. Sure, if all your DTML is doing is simple if/then statements, maybe a loop or two, it'll only take a few minutes to get used to the management interface itself. However, if you've got some seriously complicated things going on, it will be a lot more difficult. We've got an application framework being developed that relies very heavily on some extraordinarily tricky acquisition to get pages to render correctly. Everything is determined by the path you take to actually get to the page you want to look at, so a difference of one directory being present in the acquisition path can *drastically* alter how a page is displayed and functions (just adding the "admin" folder, for instance). Everything's automatically rendered. You basically never have to touch HTML again, because there's all these Widgets all over the place doing everything for you. Expecting someone to just jump into that kind of thing after becoming comfortable with the management interface would be insane. (Once you're into the Zen of the thing, though, it's wonderful!) If you're just putting together some relatively simple webapps, your timeline's probably all right. However, if you want a fully-functional ZCommerce site up, running, *secure,* and easily expandable, I'd say there's a lot more you've got to get through. :) Just my opinion, though. Perhaps I'm just slow. :) Happy Zoping! -CJ "J. Atwood" wrote:
Well, if you added it all up I was talking about 96 hours of development (8 days x 12 hours) which is a lot to bring up a site in Zope. I agree it does depend on the person but I have had graphics people once given a 10 minute intro to Zope not only start playing around with DTML but doing quick if/then statements. OO helps, and Python can help but some of things are not exactly the same as Python and TOO much Python can hurt.
I wise man once said..
"There are only three timelines for programmers:
1) Something that can be done in 20 minutes 2) Something that can be done in a day 3) Something that can be done in a year"
J
From: Dan Rusch <drusch@globalcrossing.com> Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 10:36:16 -0500 To: "J. Atwood" <jatwood@bwanazulia.com> Cc: D Swart <dirk@vis.co.za>, zcommerce@codeit.com, zope@zope.org Subject: Re: [Zope] Costs of implementation
I think that the timeline J provided is unrealistically optimistic. The amount of time it will take someone to go from 0 to Zope varies wildly. We have had developers come in and in a matter of a few days they are very productive. Others take much longer. Several things affect this. Someone to show you the ropes being primary. Previous knowledge, especially in OOP and in python or pythonish language, is also crucial.
So how long depends on you. If you don't have someone who knows Zope and python expect to struggle up the near vertical learning curve of Zope. After helping to train several people on Zope I would recommend not reading any Zope documentation until after you understand python. In other words, learn the basics of python first. Know what a list, dictionary and tuple are and their syntax and operations and many of the mysteries of Zope will be cleared up (i.e. when do you need tics instead of quotes etc.). After garnishing a working knowledge (you don't need to be a Zen master of python) of python ,then read the Zope documentation and start working in Zope.
Just my experience working with newbies.....
Dan
"J. Atwood" wrote:
At 8:32 AM +0200 6/13/2000, D Swart wrote:
I am trying to motivate the use of Zope / Zcommerce, and to do this need some timing ideas - Does anyone have thoughts on how long (man hours per expertise) it took them to go from no Zope to (Zope + Steve Spickelmire and Co's EMarket) and to a successful transaction?
From 0 to Zope in under 6.2 seconds! :)
If you are totally new (no Zope in your blood) here is what I would expect. This does take into account that you know "something" about programming and variables and really good HTML as well as some server stuff (how to set up, IP addresses, shell scripts). I have put what it would take a Zopista in parenthesis (not me though, I only play one on the web).
1 day (1 hour) - Install Zope 1 day (done) - Download, print, read all guides and "howtos" 5 Days (2 days) - To get a basic site up and running. Log in, look and feel, tested, management, feel the power of Zope 1 day (2 hours) - Set up database backend and connect 5 days (2 days) - Build catalog system, Z SQL Methods, etc 2 days (2 days) - testing, testing, testing
This is very rough but should be around the amount of time. This does mean full "developing days" which are about 10-14 hours. I don't know about transactions so you might want to pad it a bit. I will say though, that once you get into developing with Zope you realize just how fast you can develop new products with it. It is an amazing working environment.
J