Paul Everitt wrote:
I've been following this thread with interest, albeit from within the air raid bunker. Martijn seems to have touched a nerve. :^)
I must be in touch with the Zope community, or something. :)
Here's what I'd like to see. Could someone post a recap of the discussion? I did this recently for the "Zope Front Door" thread and found it to be an invaluable exercise.
Hm, not me, probably. No time, no time.. Good idea though.
Zope's usability needs to improve a LOT. I got a good dose of this when I taught a three day Zope course several months back. When you have to explain it to people, you really find out how baroque Zope can be.
Right, to look at anything from a newbie's perspective can be very enlightening.
Though I agree with Andrew that the problem isn't just DTML, that seems to be a locus.
Yes. I think Zope's design as a whole is elegant and *does* use unifying concepts everywhere (such as acquisition). The system has conceptual integrity and generally this is respected during development. I believe however that in some places, especially the DTML area, this conceptual integrity is currently being harmed. With me this tends to raise the 'Redesign' flag, but it tends to get raised rather quickly with me anyway.
DTML *is* being used in a way that violates its design (separation of presentation and logic). But at the same time we at DC lead the way on this violation, and aren't actively promoting viable alternatives.
I'm glad you can recognize that. Open source rulzez! :)
I'll say this about an ngDTML effort: good luck. The current quandry exists for a reason: there are a lot of tough design choices. That which is clear to the Python hacker is obtuse to the HTML newbie. That which is clear to the DTML developer is inefficient to the parser/renderer. That which is...
Yes, definitely understood. Luck and hard thought would definitely be necessary. In the mean while other fixes will be necessary, as any ngDTML project will need a lot of time.
I *really* hope we get some traction on what to do here.
Me too. Regards, Martijn