Exactly. My concern is to get the right kind of discussion going because it is going to need some differnt kinds of minds to work together. This meshes with my thinking recently. I think many in the Zope community are "early-adopters" kind of people -- willing to put up with spending time to know the ins and outs of DTML or python programmers who would do most in python. A python programmer or early adopter does not a typical web design team make. Personally. I like the notion of a DTML an that you can do a little business logic there if you choose to. This issue with DTML in my mind is that its syntax/semantics design throws people for loops that can waste their time for sometimes days. Early adopters will go through this trial by fire. I did and now on the other side I know the gotchas. Early adopters are a special breed of people that will give a new product a ring of success but this pool saturates easily, leading a new company to the chasm. To cross the chasm, and reach a broader audience, this trial by fire phase of becoming a productive Zope user has to be reduced -- in addition to addressing other productivity parts of the bigger product pie mentioned in prior messages. If you are interested in understanding the business of Crossing the Chasm, I would recommend a book by the same name. I think the Zope story is still unfolding on how an open source product will cross the chasm. Regards, Albert Boulanger aboulanger@vPatch.com