At 08:36 AM 6/15/99 -0400, Paul Everitt wrote:
What makes it hideous? Is it the noice characters? (!--#) Is it the number of shift characters? Is it the fact that DTML don't look like other tags? Is it the tag in an attribute problem mentioned above?
I'd say, in order:
1) It doesn't look like the competition. (which is largely <% or inventing their own tags).
2) Excessive noise.
I'd swap those two around. Yes, PHP and ASP are similar but Cold Fusion is more like The Zope Way. I used CF before I used ASP, as Allaire obviously got there first, and my gut reaction to the <% %> delimiters after doing a couple of years of CF was "thank the Maker!" <cfThis> ... </cfThis> and <cfThat> ... </cfThat> is cumbersome to type, especially in the pre-HomeSite days. CF works exceptionally well for less technical end users as it's all a bunch of widgets. Learn or look up the syntax and Bob's your uncle: You're pulling stuff from databases and sending confirmation mails like a champion. Paul, you mentioned that the chasm between DTML and external methods is currently too great. I haven't had a chance to delve into externals yet but maybe this idea of that DTML is for Power Users is valid. I hate to suggest a Wizard but maybe some kind of DTML builder is necessary for those that need training wheels? I've already got a few test Zope/HomeSite definitions working. Maybe I'll get them finished up this weekend or next. Anybody know a good way to get permanent 4 day weekends? :-)
3) When something interesting requires the expr machinery, you can only do one expression per line. (Note that this complaint isn't slated to be solved by a syntax change in DTML, just that it is a common complaint).
I do understand your previous statement about separation of 'reporting' and 'logic' and I think it's a good one. However, from a user perspective, I only know how to clumsily use a hammer (DTML) right now so everything looks like a nail to me. Separation of Church and State is a lofty goal and both bleed into each other's turf.
[syntax/tool support observations snipped]
Here's a chance for all of you folks out there with expertise in HTML tools (Dreamweaver, FrontPage, Cyberstudio, Alpha, Emacs, etc.) to weigh in.
As I said, I've got sample HomeSite definitions on the go but I'd really like to get my head around doing a (vi|vim) definition style as it's a better editor for my needs. I've never done one but I'm sure it can't be that hard. Of course Emacs is a nice operating system but I prefer Linux at home so I can't comment on that ;-)
2) Becoming well-formed means the authors can be given hints before saving changes,
Good point.
Erm, #var seems kind of fluid and only a very, very smart editor would be able to offer hints effectively.
Let's say you rename a document. Nearly all the competition will update all the references to the document.
...and links, etc... I'd also like to say how refreshing and intelligent the comments from everybody are. So far I can't find one email where anybody's been called an a**hole. ;-) ZINU-(Zope-is-Not-USENET)-ly-yrs, baby! Jules -- "There should be one-- and preferably only one --obvious way to do it. Although that way may not be obvious at first unless you're Dutch." -- Tim <0.8 wink> Peters