Hafeliel escribió:
My thanks to everyone who took the time to reply.
Here's what I'm hearing:
[1] Many of you agree that the Zope Book is woefully incomplete. Paul, for example, was kind enough to point out that the Image class is a descendent of the Persistent class.
I opened my Zope Book back up to see how I could have missed this, and as I expected, the book doesn't show this ancestorage. In fact, the Persistent class isn't listed in Appendix B at all.
Absolute agree with these: if Zope documentation was complete some of us don't need to ask at the list but it's dificult to say how to finish it: everybody is busy every time I think the better people to finish the book is the creators themselves
[2] Some of you felt that it is acceptable that Zope's "complete docs" are scattered across the web. I disagree. The Zope Book should be complete if it's going to pretend to be the docs for Zope.
The docs for Python, for example, seem to be complete. You might have to surf around a bit to find an example that does what you want, but you don't have to dig into the source for Python just to find out what methods are available to a given class! That's not acceptable IMHO.
[3] Many of you have attacked me personally. <sarcasm> Gee, thanks. </sarcasm> I am not a troll. A troll is a person who takes only a minute to toss a match into dry brush so he can watch the fire break out. I, on the other hand, am trying to create something. I'm investing my time by creating a wiki, I'm soliciting advice from people who know more about Zope than I do (you guys), I'm writing code, and I'm trying to create something better.
By calling me names, you've essentially elevated Zope to the stature of a religion and are branding me a heretic for daring to question it. That's not how an open source community should work.
Sometimes I'm agree because I read too much times: weird way Zope was a weird thing when it starts but now has a community with people working on it Weird things today was the standar tomorrow And is not new some people answerd to the list with a rude comment (you could see it in the archives)
If you do not like the direction I'm headed, then by all means, do not follow. Stick with Zope and enjoy it, but I personally think that a light-weight alternative that doesn't protect us from doing what we want to do would be better.
How big is a Zope install, 20M? I'm not at my home PC at the moment, so I can't check. I'm betting that all the good stuff Zope really needs could fit in 50k. That leaves a 19.95M barrier to entry. I feel that all this overhead is some of what is keeping people away from Zope.
I would like a light-weight zope version but not in that way. In my opinion I don't integrate some products in the zope core (for example, wait, Aj, calm, please, DTML's). Perhaps a more Productic Zope Perhaps a basic zope with the minium to work and then products
[4] Many of you hate the wiki. My apologies. Rome wasn't built in a day. A good wiki is good because so many people contribute to it. Until more people contribute, you can only expect so much.
Perry, I'm sorry you had problems with the wiki software. It seems to work best if you configure IE so that it doesn't block cookies from that domain.
If you want to create an alternative zope book, poor. We need a better zope book not 2 independent books There are webs with recipes, we don't need more too If you want to express your opinion a weblog will be a good way
[5] Several of you defended Zope by saying that it evolved to be the beast that it is. Frankly, that's a terrible reason to live with a mess. Sometimes it takes starting over to get going in the right direction.
[6] You're right that I'm totally ignorant about Zope 3. I've never played with it. I will try to make some time for that. However, my gripes with the original Zope is that there is too much. I really just want the Zope basics. Adding more to Zope will not make me happier.
That's why I'm pushing to making it an Apache module. Apache is wildly popular and used in a tremendous number of servers. It already does most everything, so why re-invent the wheel? Let's just add on the few missing pieces so we can give developers the tools they need to build the rest of the car.
As for me, personally, I'm going to press on making a Zope alternative. I don't mean it as any insult to anyone who loves Zope.
A buddy of mine drew some parallels to an SQL product he uses. Someone created an SQL Lite version of it for people who don't need all of the SQL's advanced features. By doing so, it was not an insult to those who created the SQL program in the first place. It was merely an alternative for projects where the Lite version was better suited.
So follow if you dare, help if you'd like, but shout your insults at my back. I see no reason to stick around a community that treats me like this when I'm only trying to help.
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