On Fri, 10 Dec 1999, you wrote:
----- Original Message ----- From: Craig P Avnit <craig@londonplaza.co.uk> To: <zope@zope.org> Sent: Saturday, December 11, 1999 4:44 AM Subject: Re: [Zope] Re: reality check - The REAL issue
On Fri, 10 Dec 1999, you wrote:
Everyone is talking about the difficulty in using Zope and how good Docs would help. I believe, in part, documentation is just masking part of the problem. Zope is way-to-difficult to use. If you're a programmer, you can trudge through and figure out how Zope works. But I'm not a programmer. I have yet to see any non programmer deploy a cold fusion, vignette, or any other application server solution. Zope is not nearly as difficult to implement as a java servlet based solution.
You will always lose functionality when implementing ease of use in a development environment.
Isn't that the definition of a 'bad' development enviroment.
Are you trying to tell me that Cold Fusion, ASP and Websphere are good because they are easy to use. The problem with developers on those platforms and most windows developers, are that they code the most horrificaly bloated application known to man. Cold Fusion doesn't come close to Zope and Python in functionality and rapid development.
I don't know what's going on at the code-level, and frankly, I don't want to have to know. If Zope is to truly adopt a wide user base, it's got to be easy enough that the average user and install and deploy Zope. Right now, it's just to complicated for me use. I've got a business to run, I don't have time to mess around with the particulars.
That is why there are people out there like the fine folks at DC, who can concentrate on supplying you with the functionality you need to allow you
to
concentrate on your business.
I thought the whole idea behind open-source was that there is a critical mass of users that has to be reached for the flow on benefits. Those benefits won't arise if the open-source application isn't competitive, it won't be competitive if it isn't easy to use and it certainly won't get a critical mass if there is an understanding that 'best' practice, performance and use are not the watch words.
I agree, but the point a click mentality doesn't help either. You don't use linux because you are in a desktop environment, if windows is so good show me an ISP that trusts there operations to it, I don't. Unix and linux strengths lie in the server arena at the moment. I run a linux box at home, full printer access and all the Destop applications I need. I don't have 5 % of the problems the average window user has.
One reason I haven't move to linux is that it is still not as easy to use as windows, I just don't want to learn the geekisms. Now to add positively to this to debate, what Zope really needs is a glossary of terms, then a one page overview of all components that has been 'tested' against a panel of average windows users (the industrial standard), if they can understand it anyone that matters can. ;-).
Windows are the industry standard for home PC's and desktop, not mission critical high end apps, and distributed computing. Unix is the standard here. I agree that zope does need to be easier to use, and the docs can be improved, but I cannot agree with wanting to aspire to windows mediocrity, or heaven forbid that windows users are the only ones who matter. Most organisations run in spite of windows not because of it.
Could anyone point me to a one-page description of a product, where it resides, what it can do for me and how it interrelates with the other Zope components.
Just a thought,
Brian
_______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope No cross posts or HTML encoding! (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ) -- Craig P Avnit Director London Plaza Ltd Tel: +44 (0)7000 64-5768 Fax: +44 (0)7000 64-5769 http://www.londonplaza.co.uk
_______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope No cross posts or HTML encoding! (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
-- Craig P Avnit Director London Plaza Ltd Tel: +44 (0)7000 64-5768 Fax: +44 (0)7000 64-5769 http://www.londonplaza.co.uk