srl wrote:
So, I was hanging out on IRC last night, and mentioned Zope to someone who's fairly active in the Python community. I ended up receiving a rant about how "bloated" and slow Zope is, and anecdotal evidence about Zope crashing Linux servers repeatedly.
Those conviced by 'anecdotal' evidence are rarely worth the effort, IME. Perhasp a rant about how bloated and slow python in compared to C... nah not worth the ffort either. Basically, slow is a relative term. if you considered it worht your effort, I would ask him for specific details. Why _exactly_ is Zope 'bloated', slow in _what_, and ocmpared to _what_? When pressed for these, this type person tend to just shut down, and begin waving their hands.
I know there was/is a memory leak that might be to blame in this
There was more talk about one due to many people misunderstanding the reporting tools of their OS. That isn't to say there are/were none, but that most of them turned out to be misunderstandings.
case, but the fact remains: at least one person who might have been convinced that Zope is cool has been *seriously* turned off to it, for reasons of speed and memory hogging in a particular environment.
No, for _perceived_ slowness, and _alleged_ memory problems. On top of that, since we cannot possibly please everyone, this ounds like something of little consequences. Sure, Zope can be 'sped up', but then, so can python. Zope is written in python with a few things written in C. All things are slow, and all things are fast, it all depends on your point of view. Slow compared to what? Consider whether the comparison is valid. For example, serving static, unchanging html files. Zope loses there, but it was not designed to do that. Zope was designed as a coherent environment, and as such will incure some overhead. In addition to that, you would need to take into account the environmentof the comparison. Want to compare Zope's speed to other servers? Test against ZServer, and not Zope behind another. I can show conclusively, and I doubt any here would doubt it anyway, that ZServer is faster than any other method of serving up Zope (that we have found anyway).
Is there a Zope Advocacy FAQ somewhere I can use when people throw things like this at me?
Mostly just apply principles of reason and logic. Ask for specifics, ask for sources, then carefully, and accurately deal with what is, or is not, provided. Often times, there will be none provided. Anectdotal evidence should be taken lightly, with little import when considering advocacy arguments. Otherwise, you wind up with an anecdote war, wich is neither helpful, nor useful. I would take claims of 'taking down linux' with a very hefty dose of salt. ATM, I don't recall any reports of ths happening. Stay objective and rational; and if that doesn't work, conclude with 'Not all apps are all things to all people. Feel free to use your own.'. :-)