Re: [Zope] DTML in Zope 2 vs Zope 3
Dne čtvrtek, 26. května 2005 22:03 Greg Fischer <retheoff@gmail.com> napsal(a):
I am just curious, why is DTML not good? It does 9 out of 10 things I want quite easily. From my perspective, I really dont want to learn new ways of doing things if this works. I also have no desire to do templating. I can see the need for it in a large development shop,but for me, a 1 guy operation, I have no desire to complicate things. DTML works so easy for me.
I do use Python scripts here and there for small and odd things that would be difficult or impossible to do in DTML, but like I said, that's maybe only 10% max of the functionality that I need to provide. (probably 5-6%) Having to move everything in Python is a hassle that I dont plan on doing for a few years. I'll just keep using Zope 2.
I'd also be curious to know from all you other developers, what percentage of tasks that you need to perform or functionality you need to provide can be provided simply with DTML? Like for me, I can do quickly and easily do 90% of what I need in DTML.
Is DTML really that much harder to use?
I understand the whole idea of separating the logic and the presentation, and I guess, is that part of the reason why DTML is not as good? But, for me, that separation is more complicated. DTML is easier for me. (partly because I know it)
I dont know, DTML and the "everythings an object" concept in Zope are the very things that make Zope so attractive for a small time operator like me. I hate to see them deprecated just because it doesnt work for the larger companies out there. Of course, I may be totally ignorant about all this, huh?
I absolutelly agree with you, it is like my words. But separation of logic and presentation could be done successfully in DTML too. ZPT, which have "separation argument" is not as easy to make totally separated design as marketing says, for example see Plone - try to customize plone site to absolutelly different custom design - it is near impossible. -- Jaroslav Lukesh ----------------------------------------------------------- This e-mail can not contain any viruses because I use Linux
Am Freitag, den 27.05.2005, 00:20 +0200 schrieb Jaroslav Lukesh: ...
I absolutelly agree with you, it is like my words.
But separation of logic and presentation could be done successfully in DTML too. ZPT, which have "separation argument" is not as easy to make totally
This is even somewhat correct. If people had the discipline to not abuse the templating to do complicated logic. The major drawbacks of DTML are: - one namespace (with transparent layers) - confusing naming of tags, like <dtml-var> which really is <dtml-print> or something - and the extra tags for flow control, but probably the dtml fans can live with it. - peoples practice to use <dtml-var foo> even inside html-tags attributes, where &dtml-foo; should be used.
separated design as marketing says, for example see Plone - try to customize plone site to absolutelly different custom design - it is near impossible.
Unfortunately Plone is still a bad example for ZPT. It is getting better but still it has a lot of code and definition in the templates. Maybe AT would be a way out.
Wow, thanks for the replies guys. It's good to hear I am not the only one who likes DTML. Tino, thanks for the explanations. I have some thoughts below on that, and keep in mind, I am questioning from my own ignorance. Tino Wrote:
The major drawbacks of DTML are:
- one namespace (with transparent layers) One namespace? Why do you need more? I havent had any problems with one. Can you give some examples of why this is important or how it would be useful?
- confusing naming of tags, like <dtml-var> which really is <dtml-print> or something Well I realize that it could be named something else, but it never occured to me. I dont think it's confusing. I mean, in DTML you use 4 tags more than any other, IN, VAR, IF, and CALL. Simple. And if there is one thing I have learned over the few years I have been programming, it is to keep it simple. Simple works.
- and the extra tags for flow control, but probably the dtml fans can live with it. Yeah, simple. We can live with it, particularly since we can call more detailed functionality from Python.
- peoples practice to use <dtml-var foo> even inside html-tags attributes, where &dtml-foo; should be used. Hmm.. Never thought of that one as I too just use the full <dtml-var foo>. I can see now that it might make readability a little better to use &dtml, but is there a technical reason for using it that way?
Thank you again for your input Tino. I can understand the need to take Zope to another level, its the nature of things to keep them growing. And changing Zope to fit the needs of large scale applications is good, I just hate to see the sacrifice of the smaller apps needs. I probably will never get to work on enterprise class systems, in fact I really dont want to, but Zope works beautifully for the small web apps and that's what I want to work on. I wonder what the ratio is of Zope users who use small apps to those who do large apps? Thanks again! Greg On 5/26/05, Tino Wildenhain <tino@wildenhain.de> wrote:
Am Freitag, den 27.05.2005, 00:20 +0200 schrieb Jaroslav Lukesh: ...
I absolutelly agree with you, it is like my words.
But separation of logic and presentation could be done successfully in DTML too. ZPT, which have "separation argument" is not as easy to make totally
This is even somewhat correct. If people had the discipline to not abuse the templating to do complicated logic. The major drawbacks of DTML are:
- one namespace (with transparent layers) - confusing naming of tags, like <dtml-var> which really is <dtml-print> or something - and the extra tags for flow control, but probably the dtml fans can live with it. - peoples practice to use <dtml-var foo> even inside html-tags attributes, where &dtml-foo; should be used.
separated design as marketing says, for example see Plone - try to customize plone site to absolutelly different custom design - it is near impossible.
Unfortunately Plone is still a bad example for ZPT. It is getting better but still it has a lot of code and definition in the templates. Maybe AT would be a way out.
_______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
-- Greg Fischer 1st Byte Solutions http://www.1stbyte.com
Tino Wildenhain wrote:
Unfortunately Plone is still a bad example for ZPT. It is getting better but still it has a lot of code and definition in the templates. Maybe AT would be a way out.
AT? As in ArcheTypes? You ARE kidding right? I've never seen such bad code, and in particular, abuse of ZPT in my entire life... And DTML sux, you wanna use it, fine, that says something about you. Use ZClasses, Plone, AT and XUF at the same time while you're at it. Why not dig out LoginManager and ZPatterns too, just for good measure? Hell, why not just do us all a favour and switch to using Perl where you'll be soooo much happier, and everyone in the community will agree with you rather than trying to help you not shoot yourself in the foot ;-) cheers, Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk
On 5/27/05, Chris Withers <chris@simplistix.co.uk> wrote:
AT? As in ArcheTypes? You ARE kidding right? I've never seen such bad code, and in particular, abuse of ZPT in my entire life...
And DTML sux, you wanna use it, fine, that says something about you. Use ZClasses, Plone, AT and XUF at the same time while you're at it. Why not dig out LoginManager and ZPatterns too, just for good measure?
Hell, why not just do us all a favour and switch to using Perl where you'll be soooo much happier, and everyone in the community will agree with you rather than trying to help you not shoot yourself in the foot ;-)
Is it me or are you really pissed??? :-) At least give DTML some credit... It's what made Zope so popular in the first days because of easy and fast learning curve!!! Regards Hugo -- Hugo Ramos - ramosh@gmail.com
On 5/27/05, Hugo Ramos <ramosh@gmail.com> wrote:
On 5/27/05, Chris Withers <chris@simplistix.co.uk> wrote:
AT? As in ArcheTypes? You ARE kidding right? I've never seen such bad code, and in particular, abuse of ZPT in my entire life...
And DTML sux, you wanna use it, fine, that says something about you. Use ZClasses, Plone, AT and XUF at the same time while you're at it. Why not dig out LoginManager and ZPatterns too, just for good measure?
Hell, why not just do us all a favour and switch to using Perl where you'll be soooo much happier, and everyone in the community will agree with you rather than trying to help you not shoot yourself in the foot ;-)
Is it me or are you really pissed??? :-) At least give DTML some credit... It's what made Zope so popular in the first days because of easy and fast learning curve!!!
Regards Hugo
Yup, I completely agree with Hugo, dtml what made zope, zope. Chris probably has a point as an advanced user but zope still needs a lot of joe-beginners and their needs to be considered too. ismet
-- Hugo Ramos - ramosh@gmail.com _______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Ismet Dere escribió:
On 5/27/05, Hugo Ramos <ramosh@gmail.com> wrote:
On 5/27/05, Chris Withers <chris@simplistix.co.uk> wrote:
AT? As in ArcheTypes? You ARE kidding right? I've never seen such bad code, and in particular, abuse of ZPT in my entire life...
And DTML sux, you wanna use it, fine, that says something about you. Use ZClasses, Plone, AT and XUF at the same time while you're at it. Why not dig out LoginManager and ZPatterns too, just for good measure?
Hell, why not just do us all a favour and switch to using Perl where you'll be soooo much happier, and everyone in the community will agree with you rather than trying to help you not shoot yourself in the foot ;-)
Is it me or are you really pissed??? :-) At least give DTML some credit... It's what made Zope so popular in the first days because of easy and fast learning curve!!!
Regards Hugo
Yup, I completely agree with Hugo, dtml what made zope, zope.
Chris probably has a point as an advanced user but zope still needs a lot of joe-beginners and their needs to be considered too.
ismet
-- Hugo Ramos - ramosh@gmail.com _______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
_______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Sorry but, in my opinion, acquisition make zope, zope, products make zope zope, python make zope, zope but DTML, in my opinion, remember, is only a product See ya -- Mis Cosas http://blogs.sistes.net/Garito/
Damn users, using all this imperfect software. These Kids Today! ;-) Easy Big Fella, Whooa. -Jon Chris Withers wrote:
Tino Wildenhain wrote:
Unfortunately Plone is still a bad example for ZPT. It is getting better but still it has a lot of code and definition in the templates. Maybe AT would be a way out.
AT? As in ArcheTypes? You ARE kidding right? I've never seen such bad code, and in particular, abuse of ZPT in my entire life...
And DTML sux, you wanna use it, fine, that says something about you. Use ZClasses, Plone, AT and XUF at the same time while you're at it. Why not dig out LoginManager and ZPatterns too, just for good measure?
Hell, why not just do us all a favour and switch to using Perl where you'll be soooo much happier, and everyone in the community will agree with you rather than trying to help you not shoot yourself in the foot ;-)
cheers,
Chris
+-------[ Jonathan Cyr ]---------------------- | Damn users, using all this imperfect software. These Kids Today! ;-) | | Easy Big Fella, Whooa. | You must be new here.... We've all learnt to ignore Chris... He gets easily confused... or maybe he doesn't take his medication... not sure, but, ignoring him generally works for the best d8) -- Andrew Milton akm@theinternet.com.au
Andrew Milton wrote:
+-------[ Jonathan Cyr ]---------------------- | Damn users, using all this imperfect software. These Kids Today! ;-) | | Easy Big Fella, Whooa. |
You must be new here.... We've all learnt to ignore Chris...
He gets easily confused... or maybe he doesn't take his medication... not sure, but, ignoring him generally works for the best d8)
Actually as a member of "scorched by Chris club" I find his acid wit funny. Plus he has contributed alot to the community and has answered endless questions. David
participants (10)
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Andrew Milton -
Chris Withers -
David H -
Garito -
Greg Fischer -
Hugo Ramos -
Ismet Dere -
Jaroslav Lukesh -
Jonathan Cyr -
Tino Wildenhain