Hi Mark ( and everyone on the c:d zope-mailinglist), just stumbled into Zopemag-site and saw what you at behiive have been up to (http://zopemag.com/Issue001/index.html). My first thougth was that what a nice idea, untill I realized that it isn't that great idea - since the magazine is based on paid subscriptions. I do know that people need to get paid for their work, but that also raises the question about what people are getting for the money they pay. For example judging by the first issue ( it is not fair to judge by the covers, I know ) , there isn't much to pay for yet. I am all up to educating people more about zope and canonical documents like good howto's reports, articles and books are propably the best guidance -- and after that people need technical documentation. Zopemag now raises a couple of questions: 1) What is editorial policy: - who can and will contribute - what do you will pay for the contributors 2) Openess policy - how much content will be open in the future for example would something like making the previous numbers free be out of the question? - what open services will be developed? If the world would be ideal place, I would like to see something like zopemag as a completely open system, or partly paid and for example archive as open content. I feel that magazine like content is really good to tie thing together and get people to find products and other howto's that migth interst them. Of course my point of view is only about educating people and myself, since I do not make money out of selling Zope-knowledge, even though I make money out of creating services and applications with Zope. Please answer and start discussion about what community could do to support something like zopemag and vice versa. I feel that if made well, something like zopemag could be really good -- like the really active personal zope-portals have sofar been. By the way - the idea of zope in intranet's is really well. I am just finishing my thesis to a polytechnic about building intranet to support implementation of strategy -- and supprise supprise as a case example I present an intranet built with Zope and CMF. -huima
I agree with you, but as a beginner, this magazine could be a good font of information to me. But I think they've made some mistakes: - why they did not offer the magazine free for some time, until they have some more content ? - how many articles will be published each month ?? - it's very expensive for a new online magazine. Take the example of Newsweak: you subscribe for a year (108 PRINTED issues) for about US$ 75,00. Zope magazine is 90 Euros (about US$ 80), more than a weekly (printed and delivered) magazine. Sorry, but too expensive. I repeat: it's a great idea, but not the way they've made it. Thanks, Marcello Parra ----- Original Message ----- From: "Heimo Laukkanen" <huima@fountainpark.org> To: <mark@beehive.de> Cc: <zope@zope.org> Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 11:01 AM Subject: [Zope] Zope magazine
Hi Mark ( and everyone on the c:d zope-mailinglist),
just stumbled into Zopemag-site and saw what you at behiive have been up to (http://zopemag.com/Issue001/index.html). My first thougth was that what a nice idea, untill I realized that it isn't that great idea - since the magazine is based on paid subscriptions.
I do know that people need to get paid for their work, but that also raises the question about what people are getting for the money they pay. For example judging by the first issue ( it is not fair to judge by the covers, I know ) , there isn't much to pay for yet.
I am all up to educating people more about zope and canonical documents like good howto's reports, articles and books are propably the best guidance -- and after that people need technical documentation. Zopemag now raises a couple of questions:
1) What is editorial policy: - who can and will contribute - what do you will pay for the contributors
2) Openess policy - how much content will be open in the future for example would something like making the previous numbers free be out of the question? - what open services will be developed?
If the world would be ideal place, I would like to see something like zopemag as a completely open system, or partly paid and for example archive as open content. I feel that magazine like content is really good to tie thing together and get people to find products and other howto's that migth interst them.
Of course my point of view is only about educating people and myself, since I do not make money out of selling Zope-knowledge, even though I make money out of creating services and applications with Zope.
Please answer and start discussion about what community could do to support something like zopemag and vice versa. I feel that if made well, something like zopemag could be really good -- like the really active personal zope-portals have sofar been.
By the way - the idea of zope in intranet's is really well. I am just finishing my thesis to a polytechnic about building intranet to support implementation of strategy -- and supprise supprise as a case example I present an intranet built with Zope and CMF.
-huima
_______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
<unrequested comment> I like the idea of the online magazine, and can understand why they charge, but considering it's brand new, they should give a xx weeks free trial, and then a paid subscription. Moreover, they should give more choices like monthly, quarterly, etc. Instead of only Annual. One more idea, why not another option to pay only for the article you want to see if it's really hot? Say 50 cents for the article, and you can view it unlimited times for 24 hours. Just a thought. I understand that the time when everything was free on the web is over, but I think an attractive price is more likely to bring lots of paid subscribers than a high priced one. </unrequested comment> Marcello Parra Martins wrote:
I agree with you, but as a beginner, this magazine could be a good font of information to me. But I think they've made some mistakes:
- why they did not offer the magazine free for some time, until they have some more content ?
- how many articles will be published each month ??
- it's very expensive for a new online magazine. Take the example of Newsweak: you subscribe for a year (108 PRINTED issues) for about US$ 75,00. Zope magazine is 90 Euros (about US$ 80), more than a weekly (printed and delivered) magazine. Sorry, but too expensive.
I repeat: it's a great idea, but not the way they've made it.
Thanks, Marcello Parra
----- Original Message ----- From: "Heimo Laukkanen" <huima@fountainpark.org> To: <mark@beehive.de> Cc: <zope@zope.org> Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 11:01 AM Subject: [Zope] Zope magazine
Hi Mark ( and everyone on the c:d zope-mailinglist),
just stumbled into Zopemag-site and saw what you at behiive have been up to (http://zopemag.com/Issue001/index.html). My first thougth was that what a nice idea, untill I realized that it isn't that great idea - since the magazine is based on paid subscriptions.
I do know that people need to get paid for their work, but that also raises the question about what people are getting for the money they pay. For example judging by the first issue ( it is not fair to judge by the covers, I know ) , there isn't much to pay for yet.
I am all up to educating people more about zope and canonical documents like good howto's reports, articles and books are propably the best guidance -- and after that people need technical documentation. Zopemag now raises a couple of questions:
1) What is editorial policy: - who can and will contribute - what do you will pay for the contributors
2) Openess policy - how much content will be open in the future for example would something like making the previous numbers free be out of the question? - what open services will be developed?
If the world would be ideal place, I would like to see something like zopemag as a completely open system, or partly paid and for example archive as open content. I feel that magazine like content is really good to tie thing together and get people to find products and other howto's that migth interst them.
Of course my point of view is only about educating people and myself, since I do not make money out of selling Zope-knowledge, even though I make money out of creating services and applications with Zope.
Please answer and start discussion about what community could do to support something like zopemag and vice versa. I feel that if made well, something like zopemag could be really good -- like the really active personal zope-portals have sofar been.
By the way - the idea of zope in intranet's is really well. I am just finishing my thesis to a polytechnic about building intranet to support implementation of strategy -- and supprise supprise as a case example I present an intranet built with Zope and CMF.
-huima
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-- Jorge O. Martinez MIS Senior Associate eMediaMillWorks 1100 Mercantile Lane, Suite 119 Largo, MD 20774 E-mail => jmartinez@eMediaMillWorks.com Phone => (301)883-2482 ext. 105 Fax => (301)883-9754
Just a correction: in the example of Newsweek, US$ 75 are for TWO years of subscription. One year is just US$ 43. For the price of one year of Zope magazine, you can subscribe TWO years of Newsweek. You can say: So go and subscribe Newsweak !!! But that's not the point. I'm just using it as a comparation. I liked the idea and want lng life to Zope Mag. But with this price you won't have much subscribers. Marcello Parra ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marcello Parra Martins" <lista@parra.locaweb.com.br> To: <zope@zope.org> Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 11:20 AM Subject: Re: [Zope] Zope magazine
I agree with you, but as a beginner, this magazine could be a good font of information to me. But I think they've made some mistakes:
- why they did not offer the magazine free for some time, until they have some more content ?
- how many articles will be published each month ??
- it's very expensive for a new online magazine. Take the example of Newsweak: you subscribe for a year (108 PRINTED issues) for about US$ 75,00. Zope magazine is 90 Euros (about US$ 80), more than a weekly (printed and delivered) magazine. Sorry, but too expensive.
I repeat: it's a great idea, but not the way they've made it.
Thanks, Marcello Parra
----- Original Message ----- From: "Heimo Laukkanen" <huima@fountainpark.org> To: <mark@beehive.de> Cc: <zope@zope.org> Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 11:01 AM Subject: [Zope] Zope magazine
Hi Mark ( and everyone on the c:d zope-mailinglist),
just stumbled into Zopemag-site and saw what you at behiive have been up to (http://zopemag.com/Issue001/index.html). My first thougth was that what a nice idea, untill I realized that it isn't that great idea - since the magazine is based on paid subscriptions.
I do know that people need to get paid for their work, but that also raises the question about what people are getting for the money they pay. For example judging by the first issue ( it is not fair to judge by the covers, I know ) , there isn't much to pay for yet.
I am all up to educating people more about zope and canonical documents like good howto's reports, articles and books are propably the best guidance -- and after that people need technical documentation. Zopemag now raises a couple of questions:
1) What is editorial policy: - who can and will contribute - what do you will pay for the contributors
2) Openess policy - how much content will be open in the future for example would something like making the previous numbers free be out of the question? - what open services will be developed?
If the world would be ideal place, I would like to see something like zopemag as a completely open system, or partly paid and for example archive as open content. I feel that magazine like content is really good to tie thing together and get people to find products and other howto's that migth interst them.
Of course my point of view is only about educating people and myself, since I do not make money out of selling Zope-knowledge, even though I make money out of creating services and applications with Zope.
Please answer and start discussion about what community could do to support something like zopemag and vice versa. I feel that if made well, something like zopemag could be really good -- like the really active personal zope-portals have sofar been.
By the way - the idea of zope in intranet's is really well. I am just finishing my thesis to a polytechnic about building intranet to support implementation of strategy -- and supprise supprise as a case example I present an intranet built with Zope and CMF.
-huima
_______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
_______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
whoaa. i don't think comparing the market size and subscriber base of ZopeMag with Newsweek is fair or realistic. why don't you compare ZopeMag's prices to a specialized journal, newsletter or publication. thoses prices often range from $1000 to $18000 a year. why? because in my comparison your faced with the same situation -- low volume publishing. how many hours would 90 Euros buy you from an experienced developer? cheers, mark -------------------------------------------------------------- mark pratt (managing director) mark@beehive.de beehive elektronische medien GmbH http://www.beehive.de phone: +49 30 847-82 0 fax: +49 30 847-82 299 On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, Marcello Parra Martins wrote:
Just a correction: in the example of Newsweek, US$ 75 are for TWO years of subscription. One year is just US$ 43. For the price of one year of Zope magazine, you can subscribe TWO years of Newsweek.
You can say: So go and subscribe Newsweak !!! But that's not the point. I'm just using it as a comparation. I liked the idea and want lng life to Zope Mag. But with this price you won't have much subscribers.
Marcello Parra
----- Original Message ----- From: "Marcello Parra Martins" <lista@parra.locaweb.com.br> To: <zope@zope.org> Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 11:20 AM Subject: Re: [Zope] Zope magazine
I agree with you, but as a beginner, this magazine could be a good font of information to me. But I think they've made some mistakes:
- why they did not offer the magazine free for some time, until they have some more content ?
- how many articles will be published each month ??
- it's very expensive for a new online magazine. Take the example of Newsweak: you subscribe for a year (108 PRINTED issues) for about US$ 75,00. Zope magazine is 90 Euros (about US$ 80), more than a weekly (printed and delivered) magazine. Sorry, but too expensive.
I repeat: it's a great idea, but not the way they've made it.
Thanks, Marcello Parra
----- Original Message ----- From: "Heimo Laukkanen" <huima@fountainpark.org> To: <mark@beehive.de> Cc: <zope@zope.org> Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 11:01 AM Subject: [Zope] Zope magazine
Hi Mark ( and everyone on the c:d zope-mailinglist),
just stumbled into Zopemag-site and saw what you at behiive have been up to (http://zopemag.com/Issue001/index.html). My first thougth was that what a nice idea, untill I realized that it isn't that great idea - since the magazine is based on paid subscriptions.
I do know that people need to get paid for their work, but that also raises the question about what people are getting for the money they pay. For example judging by the first issue ( it is not fair to judge by the covers, I know ) , there isn't much to pay for yet.
I am all up to educating people more about zope and canonical documents like good howto's reports, articles and books are propably the best guidance -- and after that people need technical documentation. Zopemag now raises a couple of questions:
1) What is editorial policy: - who can and will contribute - what do you will pay for the contributors
2) Openess policy - how much content will be open in the future for example would something like making the previous numbers free be out of the question? - what open services will be developed?
If the world would be ideal place, I would like to see something like zopemag as a completely open system, or partly paid and for example archive as open content. I feel that magazine like content is really good to tie thing together and get people to find products and other howto's that migth interst them.
Of course my point of view is only about educating people and myself, since I do not make money out of selling Zope-knowledge, even though I make money out of creating services and applications with Zope.
Please answer and start discussion about what community could do to support something like zopemag and vice versa. I feel that if made well, something like zopemag could be really good -- like the really active personal zope-portals have sofar been.
By the way - the idea of zope in intranet's is really well. I am just finishing my thesis to a polytechnic about building intranet to support implementation of strategy -- and supprise supprise as a case example I present an intranet built with Zope and CMF.
-huima
_______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
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_______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Hello Mark, I don't think you have to mantain a free service and understand you have to pay your bills. I'd like to help you with that. Yesterday, when I first saw it, I loved the idea and took my credit card to subscribe. I gave up when I say the price... You could think about an initial offer... you bet I would be the first to subscribe. Good luck to you. Thanks a lot, Marcello Parra ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Pratt" <mpratt@beehive.de> To: "Marcello Parra Martins" <lista@parra.locaweb.com.br> Cc: <zope@zope.org> Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 12:05 PM Subject: Re: [Zope] Zope magazine
whoaa.
i don't think comparing the market size and subscriber base of ZopeMag with Newsweek is fair or realistic.
why don't you compare ZopeMag's prices to a specialized journal, newsletter or publication. thoses prices often range from $1000 to $18000 a year.
why? because in my comparison your faced with the same situation -- low volume publishing.
how many hours would 90 Euros buy you from an experienced developer?
cheers,
mark
-------------------------------------------------------------- mark pratt (managing director) mark@beehive.de beehive elektronische medien GmbH http://www.beehive.de phone: +49 30 847-82 0 fax: +49 30 847-82 299
On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, Marcello Parra Martins wrote:
Just a correction: in the example of Newsweek, US$ 75 are for TWO years of subscription. One year is just US$ 43. For the price of one year of Zope magazine, you can subscribe TWO years of Newsweek.
You can say: So go and subscribe Newsweak !!! But that's not the point. I'm just using it as a comparation. I liked the idea and want lng life to Zope Mag. But with this price you won't have much subscribers.
Marcello Parra
----- Original Message ----- From: "Marcello Parra Martins" <lista@parra.locaweb.com.br> To: <zope@zope.org> Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 11:20 AM Subject: Re: [Zope] Zope magazine
I agree with you, but as a beginner, this magazine could be a good font of information to me. But I think they've made some mistakes:
- why they did not offer the magazine free for some time, until they have some more content ?
- how many articles will be published each month ??
- it's very expensive for a new online magazine. Take the example of Newsweak: you subscribe for a year (108 PRINTED issues) for about US$ 75,00. Zope magazine is 90 Euros (about US$ 80), more than a weekly (printed and delivered) magazine. Sorry, but too expensive.
I repeat: it's a great idea, but not the way they've made it.
Thanks, Marcello Parra
----- Original Message ----- From: "Heimo Laukkanen" <huima@fountainpark.org> To: <mark@beehive.de> Cc: <zope@zope.org> Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 11:01 AM Subject: [Zope] Zope magazine
Hi Mark ( and everyone on the c:d zope-mailinglist),
just stumbled into Zopemag-site and saw what you at behiive have been up to (http://zopemag.com/Issue001/index.html). My first thougth was that what a nice idea, untill I realized that it isn't that great idea - since the magazine is based on paid subscriptions.
I do know that people need to get paid for their work, but that also raises the question about what people are getting for the money they pay. For example judging by the first issue ( it is not fair to judge by the covers, I know ) , there isn't much to pay for yet.
I am all up to educating people more about zope and canonical documents like good howto's reports, articles and books are propably the best guidance -- and after that people need technical documentation. Zopemag now raises a couple of questions:
1) What is editorial policy: - who can and will contribute - what do you will pay for the contributors
2) Openess policy - how much content will be open in the future for example would something like making the previous numbers free be out of the question? - what open services will be developed?
If the world would be ideal place, I would like to see something like zopemag as a completely open system, or partly paid and for example archive as open content. I feel that magazine like content is really good to tie thing together and get people to find products and other howto's that migth interst them.
Of course my point of view is only about educating people and myself, since I do not make money out of selling Zope-knowledge, even though I make money out of creating services and applications with Zope.
Please answer and start discussion about what community could do to support something like zopemag and vice versa. I feel that if made well, something like zopemag could be really good -- like the really active personal zope-portals have sofar been.
By the way - the idea of zope in intranet's is really well. I am just finishing my thesis to a polytechnic about building intranet to support implementation of strategy -- and supprise supprise as a case example I present an intranet built with Zope and CMF.
-huima
_______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
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On Thu, Apr 18, 2002 at 05:05:02PM +0200, Mark Pratt wrote:
whoaa.
i don't think comparing the market size and subscriber base of ZopeMag with Newsweek is fair or realistic.
why don't you compare ZopeMag's prices to a specialized journal, newsletter or publication. thoses prices often range from $1000 to $18000 a year.
why? because in my comparison your faced with the same situation -- low volume publishing.
That analogy doesn't really work so well. We don't have the same kind of drastic economy of scale online. I don't know about what it costs to support 1,000,000 readers online, but it costs almost nothing to support 100 readers online. In the print world, the cost of printing 100 copies would be completely absurd. So the real issue is content. If Zopemag wants their content providers (i.e. writers) to make some money, that's great. They are free to use whatever business model they like.
From my perspective as a (currently unpaid) zope developer, the one they have chosen looks absurd. I can't pay that much for a sub to something that I can't even get a sneak peek at. Especially online, where you don't know if the business is going to exist in a week, let alone a year.
Take the porn site business model. :) Let's say you could pay $3 for access to one issue for a couple days. Then if you like it, there could be quarterly and annual subscription rates. I would definitely pay a few bucks for a trial. --PW
Whoops. I owe beehive and the list an apology for not looking closer (e.g. at the front page of zopemag.com)... On Thu, Apr 18, 2002 at 09:05:27AM -0700, Paul Winkler wrote:
I can't pay that much for a sub to something that I can't even get a sneak peek at.
Of course I can get sneak peeks... there's an intro text and a full article both clearly marked "free". Duh. So my only remaining point is: Too expensive for me! Otherwise, I have no complaints with beehive or anyone else offering any content they like under any terms they like. I do think it would be a nice idea to have other subscription plans besides annual, or articles available on a pay-per-read basis. --PW
Hi Heimo, and all other zope@zope.org mailinglist subscribers ... On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, Heimo Laukkanen wrote:
Hi Mark ( and everyone on the c:d zope-mailinglist),
just stumbled into Zopemag-site and saw what you at behiive have been up to (http://zopemag.com/Issue001/index.html). My first thougth was that what a nice idea, untill I realized that it isn't that great idea - since the magazine is based on paid subscriptions.
You know I really have a problem with that logic. I believe its a great idea regardless of whether it is a free magazine or commercial because the point is with ZopeMag we are creating another resource. "Free" is only "free" if time has no value. We believe that it will save our readers a ton of time. They will stay up-to-date on recent Zope Products, topics not covered anywhere else or not in enough detail.
I do know that people need to get paid for their work, but that also raises the question about what people are getting for the money they pay. For example judging by the first issue ( it is not fair to judge by the covers, I know ) , there isn't much to pay for yet.
Did you read about the format? The "Find out more" button and the other information before you subscribe should answer these questions. Our readers can expect to find regular and fresh content every two weeks.
I am all up to educating people more about zope and canonical documents like good howto's reports, articles and books are propably the best guidance -- and after that people need technical documentation. Zopemag now raises a couple of questions:
1) What is editorial policy: - who can and will contribute - what do you will pay for the contributors
These are valid questions and I with your permission will use them to help answer them for any contributors. Q: Who can and will contribute? Anybody is welcome to send us an article outline. We'll take it from there. We are willing to pay contributors. But clearly that depends on several factors including the length of an article. This particular point in my opinion does not belong on this mailinglist.
2) Openess policy - how much content will be open in the future for example would something like making the previous numbers free be out of the question? - what open services will be developed?
I don't think that is likely. And the truth is we are still thinking about other resources we may provide (and/or what will be "free"). So I can't answer that. But I can tell you that our subscribers come first. They are helping us pay our bills and keep jobs where we get to work every day with Zope. Again, we are happy to give Zope developers, users and designers another choice. You don't have to become a subscriber. But its our goal to develop ZopeMag into a service you and everyone here on this mailinglist would like. Our goal has always been to provide new resources to the Zope community and thereby more choices.
If the world would be ideal place, I would like to see something like zopemag as a completely open system, or partly paid and for example archive as open content. I feel that magazine like content is really good to tie thing together and get people to find products and other howto's that migth interst them.
We don't have a monopoly on ideas. Everyone is free to create new resources (commercial and non commercial) for the community.
Of course my point of view is only about educating people and myself, since I do not make money out of selling Zope-knowledge, even though I make money out of creating services and applications with Zope.
Sorry, don't follow the logic. How is creating services and applications not another form of selling Zope knowledge?
Please answer and start discussion about what community could do to support something like zopemag and vice versa. I feel that if made well, something like zopemag could be really good -- like the really active personal zope-portals have sofar been.
If your interested in writing for ZopeMag let us know. If you have a good suggestion for a theme or would really like to see documentation on a particular subject drop us a line at zope-ep@beehive.de
By the way - the idea of zope in intranet's is really well. I am just finishing my thesis to a polytechnic about building intranet to support implementation of strategy -- and supprise supprise as a case example I present an intranet built with Zope and CMF.
We have several authors interested in writing about their experiences with Zope and CMF -- coming soon in a ZopeMag near you ! ;-) Regards, Mark -------------------------------------------------------------- mark pratt (managing director) mark@beehive.de beehive elektronische medien GmbH http://www.beehive.de phone: +49 30 847-82 0 fax: +49 30 847-82 299
Mark Pratt wrote:
We believe that it will save our readers a ton of time. They will stay up-to-date on recent Zope Products, topics not covered anywhere else or not in enough detail.
So let's start discussing the quality of your service. Please read the thread "MetaFlow" on this list. Is that the way you want to save my time or to waste it? Further on there is a link to LocalFS on your page. The issues of this version regarding the use of re is discussed several times on this list for free. Why should somebody pay for that information? It is simply "alter Wein in neuen Schläuchen" as we say in German ;-) -- _______________________________________________________________________ Andreas Heckel andreas@easyleading.org LINUX is like a wigwam...no gates...no windows and an apache inside ;-)
hi, first of all michel is working on setting up a seperate mailinglist for MetaFlow. second of all how can MetaFlow and the article (considering it was released so recently) be "old wine". strange logic. could it be that michel is not subscribed to this mailinglist? i don't think he is. its kind of difficult to answer questions when they are not addressed at the author. may i suggest you forward him your original question with a cc to zope@zope.org. his email is michel@beehive.de thanks, mark -------------------------------------------------------------- mark pratt (managing director) mark@beehive.de beehive elektronische medien GmbH http://www.beehive.de phone: +49 30 847-82 0 fax: +49 30 847-82 299 Seen ZopeMag yet? Check out http://www.zopemag.com On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, Andreas Heckel wrote:
Mark Pratt wrote:
We believe that it will save our readers a ton of time. They will stay up-to-date on recent Zope Products, topics not covered anywhere else or not in enough detail.
So let's start discussing the quality of your service. Please read the thread "MetaFlow" on this list. Is that the way you want to save my time or to waste it?
Further on there is a link to LocalFS on your page. The issues of this version regarding the use of re is discussed several times on this list for free. Why should somebody pay for that information?
It is simply "alter Wein in neuen Schläuchen" as we say in German ;-)
-- _______________________________________________________________________ Andreas Heckel andreas@easyleading.org LINUX is like a wigwam...no gates...no windows and an apache inside ;-)
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Mark Pratt wrote:
first of all michel is working on setting up a seperate mailinglist for MetaFlow.
That's fine. But it says nothing about the quality of the already released tutorial. Nobody is willing to subscribe to yet another mailinglist to discusse one zope product. OK ... MetaFlow and the tutorial is for free. But I can't see how you can save my time if you want me to read more reviews, tutorials and mails. Where is the real benefit?
second of all how can MetaFlow and the article (considering it was released so recently) be "old wine". strange logic.
Maybe it was a simlpe misunderstanding. But I talked from "old wine" in relation to the LocalFS link at zopemag.com
could it be that michel is not subscribed to this mailinglist? i don't think he is. You are right ... he isn't subscribed to this list.
its kind of difficult to answer questions when they are not addressed at the author. Please have a look at the thread. ALL conversation is also addressed to Michel Pelletier <michel@dialnetwork.com>. Please note his replys to some of the postings.
The only reason why I took the time to report bugs is that the tutorial and the product is for free. I have no problem with paying money for a good service. But if I have to pay for a service that should save my time it makes no sense to read reviews and tutorials to a half-cooked alpha product that I can not use in production environments. Thanks Andreas -- _______________________________________________________________________ Andreas Heckel andreas@easyleading.org
Thanks for voicing this Heimo. I was also taken aback when I saw Beehive is trying to monetize the magazine. $75 for 4 quarterly issues written by the community. Are you kidding? I have never paid for an online ezine. I get industry weeklies *mailed* to me for Free that are paid for by advertising. If Beehive really wants to get into newsletter publishing, Beehive should offer this for free and have advertisers pay for it. After all - we are Zope users (OPEN SOURCE) with no pockets, NOT Oracle users with deep pockets. but I digress... First off, kudos to Beehive for stepping up to develop this idea. Yes - it fits a need. But, Beehive's decision to charge for their contribution to the community seems more predatory or parasitic. I would rather see Beehive take ZC's posture of collaborating with the community in the spirit of open source development. When the community is having growing pains and so many people are spending time working on issues to FREELY offer Z2.6, Z3, the new zope.org architecture, ZPT, etc...It almost seems like a slap in the face to be charged to read about the work we are doing for community for free (the spirit of the community). I value the development work much more than the marketing, therefore neither Is Beehive doing this because the community hasn't kept up with the news items on zope.org? Maybe Beehive should help the community develop this? Is Beehive attempting to split the community into groups that can pay and those that cant? And then you can further target those that can pay for your development services(which I here are very good)... If you have to charge...What is the money being used for? - to pay for hosting? - to pay the writers? - which writers? - guest writers? - beehive writers? - Can I get paid if I spend time to write an article? - do I get paid if my product is featured? - do I get paid if I spend my time If Beehive is defensive or impatient with their response, then I would have to say their intentions are less than noble. -Trevor
-----Original Message----- From: zope-admin@zope.org [mailto:zope-admin@zope.org]On Behalf Of Heimo Laukkanen Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 10:02 AM To: mark@beehive.de Cc: zope@zope.org Subject: [Zope] Zope magazine
Hi Mark ( and everyone on the c:d zope-mailinglist),
just stumbled into Zopemag-site and saw what you at behiive have been up to (http://zopemag.com/Issue001/index.html). My first thougth was that what a nice idea, untill I realized that it isn't that great idea - since the magazine is based on paid subscriptions.
I do know that people need to get paid for their work, but that also raises the question about what people are getting for the money they pay. For example judging by the first issue ( it is not fair to judge by the covers, I know ) , there isn't much to pay for yet.
I am all up to educating people more about zope and canonical documents like good howto's reports, articles and books are propably the best guidance -- and after that people need technical documentation. Zopemag now raises a couple of questions:
1) What is editorial policy: - who can and will contribute - what do you will pay for the contributors
2) Openess policy - how much content will be open in the future for example would something like making the previous numbers free be out of the question? - what open services will be developed?
If the world would be ideal place, I would like to see something like zopemag as a completely open system, or partly paid and for example archive as open content. I feel that magazine like content is really good to tie thing together and get people to find products and other howto's that migth interst them.
Of course my point of view is only about educating people and myself, since I do not make money out of selling Zope-knowledge, even though I make money out of creating services and applications with Zope.
Please answer and start discussion about what community could do to support something like zopemag and vice versa. I feel that if made well, something like zopemag could be really good -- like the really active personal zope-portals have sofar been.
By the way - the idea of zope in intranet's is really well. I am just finishing my thesis to a polytechnic about building intranet to support implementation of strategy -- and supprise supprise as a case example I present an intranet built with Zope and CMF.
-huima
_______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
First off, kudos to Beehive for stepping up to develop this idea. Yes - it fits a need. But, Beehive's decision to charge for their contribution to the community seems more predatory or parasitic. I would rather see Beehive take ZC's posture of collaborating with the community in the spirit of open source development.
When the community is having growing pains and so many people are spending time working on issues to FREELY offer Z2.6, Z3, the new zope.org architecture, ZPT, etc...It almost seems like a slap in the face to be charged to read about the work we are doing for community for free (the spirit of the community).
and we provided the facilities for a 3 day Zope 3 sprint and paid for Jim Fulton to fly to Berlin to coach this session and give a 2 talks. that unfortunately wasn't free. but we have no regrets. in addition we have released free documentation in the past, this ZopeMag issue includes a free article, not to mention written Open Source software. i find your comment to be very unfair.
If Beehive really wants to get into newsletter publishing, Beehive should offer this for free and have advertisers pay for it. After all - we are Zope users (OPEN SOURCE) with no pockets, NOT Oracle users with deep pockets.
i suggest you make your model work and compete with us who can provide a better resource for the community. what i truly don't understand is why some people within the community refuse to recognize that everbody in the community makes different types of contributions. we are not forcing anybody to do anything but are trying to provide options. its likely that some of our efforts have brought the community new users. isn't that a good thing? regardless of how you answer that last question. we think it is. cheers, mark -------------------------------------------------------------- mark pratt (managing director) mark@beehive.de beehive elektronische medien GmbH http://www.beehive.de phone: +49 30 847-82 0 fax: +49 30 847-82 299
I get industry weeklies *mailed* to me for Free that are paid for by advertising.
but I digress...
I value the development work much more than the marketing, therefore neither
Is Beehive doing this because the community hasn't kept up with the news items on zope.org? Maybe Beehive should help the community develop this? Is Beehive attempting to split the community into groups that can pay and those that cant? And then you can further target those that can pay for your development services(which I here are very good)...
If you have to charge...What is the money being used for? - to pay for hosting? - to pay the writers? - which writers? - guest writers? - beehive writers? - Can I get paid if I spend time to write an article? - do I get paid if my product is featured? - do I get paid if I spend my time
If Beehive is defensive or impatient with their response, then I would have to say their intentions are less than noble.
-Trevor
-----Original Message----- From: zope-admin@zope.org [mailto:zope-admin@zope.org]On Behalf Of Heimo Laukkanen Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 10:02 AM To: mark@beehive.de Cc: zope@zope.org Subject: [Zope] Zope magazine
Hi Mark ( and everyone on the c:d zope-mailinglist),
just stumbled into Zopemag-site and saw what you at behiive have been up to (http://zopemag.com/Issue001/index.html). My first thougth was that what a nice idea, untill I realized that it isn't that great idea - since the magazine is based on paid subscriptions.
I do know that people need to get paid for their work, but that also raises the question about what people are getting for the money they pay. For example judging by the first issue ( it is not fair to judge by the covers, I know ) , there isn't much to pay for yet.
I am all up to educating people more about zope and canonical documents like good howto's reports, articles and books are propably the best guidance -- and after that people need technical documentation. Zopemag now raises a couple of questions:
1) What is editorial policy: - who can and will contribute - what do you will pay for the contributors
2) Openess policy - how much content will be open in the future for example would something like making the previous numbers free be out of the question? - what open services will be developed?
If the world would be ideal place, I would like to see something like zopemag as a completely open system, or partly paid and for example archive as open content. I feel that magazine like content is really good to tie thing together and get people to find products and other howto's that migth interst them.
Of course my point of view is only about educating people and myself, since I do not make money out of selling Zope-knowledge, even though I make money out of creating services and applications with Zope.
Please answer and start discussion about what community could do to support something like zopemag and vice versa. I feel that if made well, something like zopemag could be really good -- like the really active personal zope-portals have sofar been.
By the way - the idea of zope in intranet's is really well. I am just finishing my thesis to a polytechnic about building intranet to support implementation of strategy -- and supprise supprise as a case example I present an intranet built with Zope and CMF.
-huima
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Mark Pratt wrote:
and we provided the facilities for a 3 day Zope 3 sprint and paid for Jim Fulton to fly to Berlin to coach this session and give a 2 talks.
that unfortunately wasn't free. but we have no regrets.
I was totally sorry that I was unable to participate, since that would have been really really great. Seminars are absolutely fabulous thing and I bet that everyone appreciates them, since these gathering are also place to share information and learn - but more important also bond socially with all the people in the community. I would really have liked to participate...
in addition we have released free documentation in the past, this ZopeMag issue includes a free article, not to mention written Open Source software. i find your comment to be very unfair.
...
i suggest you make your model work and compete with us who can provide a better resource for the community.
what i truly don't understand is why some people within the community refuse to recognize that everbody in the community makes different types of contributions. we are not forcing anybody to do anything but are trying to provide options.
its likely that some of our efforts have brought the community new users. isn't that a good thing?
regardless of how you answer that last question. we think it is.
Yes. Please let's all stay calm and in good relations, it is not intented that anyone accuses or points finger at others, since after all it is for our all benefit that there is a storing community and companies that work with the community. There isn't any need to dig trenches or step into defencive behaviour. My questions and also Trevor's ( as far as I can tell ) were about the thing that can zopemag succeed in closed format better than in open or semi open format. Seb Bacon just sent a good comment:
The community is made up of a ragged collection of enthusiasts, geeks, maverick members of IT departments, academics, small businesses and a benevolent dictatorship. How can we best work together towards a common good is something that interests me greatly. Those of us who depend on Zope to a massive extent for our livelihod have to create viable business models, but this does not have to create a conflict with the people who are less engaged with the business aspects, for whatever reason.
And I have to raise my hat and clap my hands for Seb writing that. This is the core of the poodle so to say. I am interested about the business aspects with Zope, but also about the thriving community. I write on a mailing list that if Zope corp or someone else would create a membership based mailing list and some guarantees for answers etc. I would not mind paying ( especially if the answers would be after that in public domain). I would like to support a good magazine that I would be certain that has something valuable and I would even like to contribute to that kind of magazine. This was the question that I had in mind while asking what do behiive plan to pay for writers. For example I would not mind changing an article for subscription or something similar. Then it would be like get into the flow by contributing something yourself. Of course that is not a businessmodell, since where would the paying persons come - and what would be my interests to write something new after I have written one article? Here comes the semi open concept into use. Paying customers / contributors per number get allways the newest version into their use, while old content becomes public domain. This way there could also start community discussions etc. on the zope mag and from the good buzz also spring new members to the zope mag etc. Do not get me wrong. I do want to see that zopemag or similar takes off really well and I do not mind behiive making money for it. Hell I love macrosoft and Adobe even though they make hell-of-a-bundle of money with their products and books etc. But the common good....Peace and love. To all. -huima
Thanks for replying so I can understand your intentions.
and we provided the facilities for a 3 day Zope 3 sprint and paid for Jim Fulton to fly to Berlin to coach this session and give a 2 talks.
that unfortunately wasn't free. but we have no regrets.
in addition we have released free documentation in the past, this ZopeMag issue includes a free article, not to mention written Open Source software. i find your comment to be very unfair.
I did not know this. This is valuable info. Thank you for contributing this way. BTW-I have suggested that we start giving credit on zope.org's homepage to groups that support Z3 sprints. We need more sprints to get Z3 out faster.
If Beehive really wants to get into newsletter publishing, Beehive should offer this for free and have advertisers pay for it. After all - we are Zope users (OPEN SOURCE) with no pockets, NOT Oracle users with deep pockets. i suggest you make your model work and compete with us who can provide a better resource for the community.
I am sorry...I dont think you are doing THIS for the overall community. You are providing resources for the "PAYING COMMUNITY". If you are doing this for the community, why aren't you part of the zope-web discussions and offering to help with community projects rather than developing your own? Beehive would be a welcomed contributor to these efforts. I am a NEW community advocate that would like to see more resources pooled together, not off into corporate corners. Beehive could become a leader in this effort if you decide it is worthwhile. Maybe you dont think the "community model" works well enough?
what i truly don't understand is why some people within the community refuse to recognize that everbody in the community makes different types of contributions. we are not forcing anybody to do anything but are trying to provide options.
Again, I am in the mode that the community still needs "donated" contributions to grow. Yes-Beehive donates resources to the community, but this isnt one of them. Yes-Beehive has the right to cover its cost(not donate). Showing how developers can make money with Zope is the most important aspect of building the development community. Yes-Beehive seems to be building an admirable business model to make money with Zope. I want to understand where Beehive fits in and give credit where credit is due. I started using Zope because of low cost of entry to do OO web apps with Python. And I embraced the idealism that the Zope community was bent on keeping things FREE for developers. I am trying to protect this ideal situation.
its likely that some of our efforts have brought the community new users. isn't that a good thing? If they are end users, I dont care. We all do that. Attracting Zope development users that contribute, err donate, is a good thing. Thank you.
You still havent answered how the money is being used. And you dont have to answer. My perspective is that the zope community is not for profit. We all suuport each other's efforts to charge for our development to end users, not necessarily charging each other. Maybe if you disclosed that 100% of the procedes will go to Z3 development and paying for more sprints then the community benefit would be clearer and easier to support. Is it about the money? Yes, it is about the money. I would not have explored Zope if I had to pay for it. I just want to understand if Beehive is trying to monetize the Zope community prematurely. Of course if you offer the mag to me for free, I will shut-up. ;) -Trevor
Trevor Toenjes wrote:
I did not know this. This is valuable info. Thank you for contributing this way. BTW-I have suggested that we start giving credit on zope.org's homepage to groups that support Z3 sprints. We need more sprints to get Z3 out faster.
Yes. I agree too. Also other Zope summits would be great. I would like to see other Zope developers and hear about their projects while also propably working together on some of the Zope-issues for the future. Because of my location ( in Finland ) northern Europe or for example Germany would be ideal place for this kinf of happening.
I started using Zope because of low cost of entry to do OO web apps with Python. And I embraced the idealism that the Zope community was bent on keeping things FREE for developers. I am trying to protect this ideal situation.
...
You still havent answered how the money is being used. And you dont have to answer. My perspective is that the zope community is not for profit. We
...
Maybe if you disclosed that 100% of the procedes will go to Z3 development and paying for more sprints then the community benefit would be clearer and easier to support.
Yes. The money issue is intersting. 90 Euros is not that much -- but I would like to know what I am getting. While buying books I know that I am also helping new Zope title's to come available, since publishers see that there is need for dead tree products too. While buying per article I would also know what I get. Buing stuff in a 'year full of subscriptin of something' I don't buy it. Not for 90 Euros. If it would be to also support Z3 or CMF development I would not hesitate! Open the businessmodell and use the community. If it is agreed, for example, that an article is worth x Euros for the author and general expenses for each magazine ( hosting etc. ) is X euros - while rest goes into Sprint fund or similar, I believe there wouldn't be any problem and propably would like to contribute just for the Sprints sake. And yes. The magazine idea is still good! -huima
Even though this discussion made me subscribe to Zope Mag, I'm not really a big believer in online magazines -- for one reason: you can't read them in the bathroom. I would really encourage beehive to try making a printed edition of their mag if the online one is a success. -Magnus
hi magnus, some arguments just can't be beat. thanks to subscribers like you we may one day be coming to a bathroom near you ;-) cheers, mark -------------------------------------------------------------- mark pratt (managing director) mark@beehive.de beehive elektronische medien GmbH http://www.beehive.de phone: +49 30 847-82 0 fax: +49 30 847-82 299 Seen ZopeMag yet? Check out http://www.zopemag.com On 18 Apr 2002, Magnus Alvestad wrote:
Even though this discussion made me subscribe to Zope Mag, I'm not really a big believer in online magazines -- for one reason: you can't read them in the bathroom. I would really encourage beehive to try making a printed edition of their mag if the online one is a success.
-Magnus
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hello trevor, lots of stuff to cover ... On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, Trevor Toenjes wrote:
Thanks for replying so I can understand your intentions.
and we provided the facilities for a 3 day Zope 3 sprint and paid for Jim Fulton to fly to Berlin to coach this session and give a 2 talks.
that unfortunately wasn't free. but we have no regrets.
in addition we have released free documentation in the past, this ZopeMag issue includes a free article, not to mention written Open Source software. i find your comment to be very unfair.
I did not know this. This is valuable info. Thank you for contributing this way. BTW-I have suggested that we start giving credit on zope.org's homepage to groups that support Z3 sprints. We need more sprints to get Z3 out faster.
If Beehive really wants to get into newsletter publishing, Beehive should offer this for free and have advertisers pay for it. After all - we are Zope users (OPEN SOURCE) with no pockets, NOT Oracle users with deep pockets. i suggest you make your model work and compete with us who can provide a better resource for the community.
I am sorry...I dont think you are doing THIS for the overall community. You are providing resources for the "PAYING COMMUNITY".
we'll maybe we should start talking semantics. because i disagree with your definition because its too simplistic. but your arguments are helping me formulate mine -- so keep doing that ;-) here are 3 points that i would like you to consider for expanding your definitiondisagree: 1. anybody who uses or develops zope software is part of the community if he/she/they/it *wants* to be. 2. the majority of the community work is based on free software and everybody should try to contribute some free resources (but its not a requirement -- just good manners) 3. companies like Bizaar (Bizaar Shop) software and IT Meedia (Amphora) are part of the Zope community even if they do not release the majority of there software as Open Source. Why? Because Zope is like an Operating System for Web Applications. Good commercial software brings users, organizations and companies to install Zope. Ditto for ZopeMag and beehive. Once people beging to appreciateZope they may pay for the development of custom software, some of this software is typically released as OpenSource Software which benefits everybody.
If you are doing this for the community, why aren't you part of the zope-web discussions and offering to help with community projects rather than developing your own? Beehive would be a welcomed contributor to these efforts.
Actually i popped in for one of the discussions and made a few suggestions this week. But clearly there is still much work to be done.
I am a NEW community advocate that would like to see more resources pooled together, not off into corporate corners. Beehive could become a leader in this effort if you decide it is worthwhile. Maybe you dont think the "community model" works well enough?
No I think the community model is working just fine. I just think the community I'm thinking of is a little bigger than yours because I see the contribution that even non OpenSource software brings long term to Zope.
what i truly don't understand is why some people within the community refuse to recognize that everbody in the community makes different types of contributions. we are not forcing anybody to do anything but are trying to provide options.
Again, I am in the mode that the community still needs "donated" contributions to grow.
I really object to the labeling of a "donor" vs. a "contributor". Starting to sound like your trying to define second class Zope citizens.
Yes-Beehive donates resources to the community, but this isnt one of them. Yes-Beehive has the right to cover its cost(not donate). Showing how developers can make money with Zope is the most important aspect of building the development community. Yes-Beehive seems to be building an admirable business model to make money with Zope. I want to understand where Beehive fits in and give credit where credit is due.
I started using Zope because of low cost of entry to do OO web apps with Python. And I embraced the idealism that the Zope community was bent on keeping things FREE for developers. I am trying to protect this ideal situation.
I'm all for ideal situations, community work, and other good stuff. I'm just not that much into idealogy.
You still havent answered how the money is being used. And you dont have to answer. My perspective is that the zope community is not for profit. We all suuport each other's efforts to charge for our development to end users, not necessarily charging each other. Maybe if you disclosed that 100% of the procedes will go to Z3 development and paying for more sprints then the community benefit would be clearer and easier to support.
Don't agree with your idealogy. Your free to start a resource charge fees and allocate the money any way you see fit. I promise I'll never tell you how I think you should allocate those resources without contributing.
Is it about the money? Yes, it is about the money. I would not have explored Zope if I had to pay for it.
Again, don't agree. We adopted Zope because it gave us freedom to mold the software anyway we needed! Why do so few people talk about freedom vs. cost is beyond me.
I just want to understand if Beehive is trying to monetize the Zope community prematurely.
Even if we wanted to do that I don't think its possible to monetize a community. So I don't know what your talking about here.
Of course if you offer the mag to me for free, I will shut-up. ;)
Well I guess we both know what's going to happen ;-) Cheers, Mark -------------------------------------------------------------- mark pratt (managing director) mark@beehive.de beehive elektronische medien GmbH http://www.beehive.de phone: +49 30 847-82 0 fax: +49 30 847-82 299
<snip> MP> > in addition we have released free documentation in the past, this ZopeMag MP> > issue includes a free article, not to mention written Open Source MP> > software. i find your comment to be very unfair. TT> I did not know this. This is valuable info. TT> Thank you for contributing this way. I don't think I quite follow your logic here. Are you suggesting that the fact that Beehive have contributed in other (more open source) ways will affect your decision on whether to subscribe to ZopeMag? If so, why? Surely ones decision should be simply be based on the merits of ZopeMag, no? tim (not wishing to pick a fight, just curious :-) )
<snip>
First off, kudos to Beehive for stepping up to develop this idea. Yes - it fits a need. But, Beehive's decision to charge for their contribution to the community seems more predatory or parasitic. I would rather see Beehive take ZC's posture of collaborating with the community in the spirit of open source development.
</snip> and <snip>
Is Beehive doing this because the community hasn't kept up with the news items on zope.org?
</snip> If I'd like to be cynical now I'd ask everyone to move on and have a go at O'Reilly too, for selling books on open-source technologies and thus being plain parasites. However, since I don't want to be- When I started using Zope my main problem was the documentation and the potential of Zope. Coping with a new technology that offers me a vast array of languages to use can be pretty heavy. The community was of help back then, with the mailing list archives, the how-to's etc. Still, I remember these days with horror, spending half a day going through tons of messages in the archive in order to find the info I needed. Now, if somebody is willing to edit the content that is in the archives, prepare it in a clear fashion, add their own knowledge to it I see this as an excellent effort. If this person then wants to charge me for the work they have done, fair-enough, as it will save me a hell of a lot of time and trouble. I think that it is unfair to blame Beehive for breaking with the community. Much more, I feel that they are trying to offer a valueable service to the users, and as it was mentioned by Mark Pratt in one of his mails, they are considering giving back to the community by making their archives accessible. Bottomline: If you are savvy enough to make it by yourself and with a bit of help from the community fine. If you don't have the cash to pay for the mag, you have the community. If you do have the cash and pay for the mag, surely you will have an easier way up on your learning curve and will be able to give it back to the community. Tim
On Thu, 18 Apr 2002, Tim [iso-8859-1] B�ckers wrote:
I think that it is unfair to blame Beehive for breaking with the community.
I even seem to remember that some time ago the only readable documentation about Zope was available from BeeHive. We gladly paid once for it, no regret. Maybe they are opening another market there... just wait. NB : I've not even read zopemag's website so I can't say anything on it. Jerome Alet - alet@unice.fr - http://cortex.unice.fr/~jerome Fac de Medecine de Nice http://wwwmed.unice.fr Tel: (+33) 4 93 37 76 30 Fax: (+33) 4 93 53 15 15 28 Avenue de Valombrose - 06107 NICE Cedex 2 - FRANCE
Couldn't resist a throwing in some comments. I don't see how it's parasitic of Beehive to write a 'closed-source' magazine. Is it parasitic of me to charge clients for software I've developed on top of Zope? Beehive do lots of good stuff, and even if they didn't, I wouldn't mind them doing this. What I do think is worth dwelling on is....: The community is made up of a ragged collection of enthusiasts, geeks, maverick members of IT departments, academics, small businesses and a benevolent dictatorship. How can we best work together towards a common good is something that interests me greatly. Those of us who depend on Zope to a massive extent for our livelihod have to create viable business models, but this does not have to create a conflict with the people who are less engaged with the business aspects, for whatever reason. I'm sure there are some really interesting, novel approaches to this problem, just waiting to be discovered. seb <snip lots of opinions from various people>
Yep, Seb summed up my position nicely as well. It's going to take a lot of different kinds of efforts to grow Zope. The next round of adopters might not look like the rest of us, nor be motivated in the same way. A professional, for-fee guide and magazine might be just the ticket for them. I personally appreciate the variety of things that Mark is doing. And if the primary beneficiary of this is Beehive, it's ok by me. That kind of goal alignment is good. As Mark noted, he forked out some pretty serious bucks both last year and this year to send a ZC person to his BBQ. Kudos, Mark. There's another point as well. For those of you that think this should be done as part of the community and for free...well, I don't see much activity in our rejuvenated effort to get a new zope.org going. There's around four of us doing most of the work on the zope-web mailing list. We occassionally put out calls for participation, but it's still the four of us. We're entering a critical time. Something will happen in the next few weeks. If you *really* think that the community can also perform on non-programming tasks, here's your chance to prove it. Come join the zope-web mailing list. I'm working this thing full time right now and I can *definately* keep you busy. But please, you have to bring time as well as opinions. --Paul On Thu, 2002-04-18 at 11:32, seb bacon wrote:
Couldn't resist a throwing in some comments.
I don't see how it's parasitic of Beehive to write a 'closed-source' magazine. Is it parasitic of me to charge clients for software I've developed on top of Zope?
Beehive do lots of good stuff, and even if they didn't, I wouldn't mind them doing this.
What I do think is worth dwelling on is....:
The community is made up of a ragged collection of enthusiasts, geeks, maverick members of IT departments, academics, small businesses and a benevolent dictatorship. How can we best work together towards a common good is something that interests me greatly. Those of us who depend on Zope to a massive extent for our livelihod have to create viable business models, but this does not have to create a conflict with the people who are less engaged with the business aspects, for whatever reason.
I'm sure there are some really interesting, novel approaches to this problem, just waiting to be discovered.
seb
<snip lots of opinions from various people>
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participants (13)
-
Andreas Heckel -
Heimo Laukkanen -
Jerome Alet -
Jorge O. Martinez -
Magnus Alvestad -
Marcello Parra Martins -
Mark Pratt -
Paul Everitt -
Paul Winkler -
seb bacon -
Tim Böckers -
Tim Hicks -
Trevor Toenjes