Re: [Zope] Zope t-shirts?
something embroidered maybe. not some huge blaring logo with tacky text :)
btw, polo shirt would be great, too
We have those too, we wore them at Linux Expo :-) We'll have to see what it would cost though, they're not as inexpensive as T-shirts, I think they're in the $35-40/each range. Chris -- | Christopher Petrilli Python Powered Digital Creations, Inc. | petrilli@digicool.com http://www.digicool.com
Christopher Petrilli wrote:
We have those too, we wore them at Linux Expo :-) We'll have to see what it would cost though, they're not as inexpensive as T-shirts, I think they're in the $35-40/each range.
That is a little much, but I might buy one anyway if it looks nice. Hmm. I wonder if I could get the boss to let me expense it... Doug
Hi All, Does anybody know what list software Zope is using?!?!? The headers of messages that I receive from the list are SOOOoooo inconsistent that they have defied my filters again and again! If there's a moderator listening out there, please, do anything you can to rectify this! As I am subscribed to *several* high-volume lists, it's a serious problem when messages from the list continually land in my Inbox, along with my business-related email. Thanks! ------------------------------ -- Jon S. Jaques --------------- -- Systems Administrator ------- -- Network Publications, Inc. -- ------------------------------
On Fri, 3 Sep 1999, Jon S. Jaques wrote:
Hi All,
Does anybody know what list software Zope is using?!?!? The headers of messages that I receive from the list are SOOOoooo inconsistent that they have defied my filters again and again! Well, try these: :0 : *^Sender: zope-dev-admin@zope.org /home/andreas/mail/bobo
:0 : *^Sender: zope-admin@zope.org /home/andreas/mail/bobo Works like a charm here. Perhaps you ought to upgrade your mailer to something sensible. Perhaps you even ought to upgrade your operating environment to something sensible ;)
If there's a moderator listening out there, please, do anything you can to rectify this! As I am subscribed to *several* high-volume lists, it's a serious problem when messages from the list continually land in my Inbox, along with my business-related email.
*lol* You are using a mailer where you cannot really configure the filtering for business? (Because either this is not possible, or it's not userfriendly enough for you to do it, right? *lol*) Much fun outlooking ;) Andreas -- Andreas Kostyrka | andreas@mtg.co.at phone: +43/1/7070750 | phone: +43/676/4091256 MTG Handelsges.m.b.H. | fax: +43/1/7065299 Raiffeisenstr. 16/9 | 2320 Zwoelfaxing AUSTRIA
*lol* You are using a mailer where you cannot really configure the filtering for business? (Because either this is not possible, or it's not userfriendly enough for you to do it, right? *lol*)
No, I don't think you get it -- I'm talking about server-side processing, here! It's *supposed* to be client independent, which requires consistency. Please, tell me that this is not indicative of your commitment to the quality of your server-side programming! That would *not* be funny. (lol back at ya! ;-)
Works like a charm here. Perhaps you ought to upgrade your mailer to something sensible. Perhaps you even ought to upgrade your operating environment to something sensible ;)
Yeah, I know, I know! And, granted, two of my servers I've already upgraded to Linux, but I will probably not be able to get the rest of my office off of Windoze (or MacOS, which I dislike even more) for quite some time, especially considering legacy investments in databases, Quark, etc. (Although I do realize that I could sell off the Quarks on Ebay, possibly even for more money that we originally paid, but unfortunately there are still features that are only supported on the Mac. :-( ) More to the point, however, Outlook is the one program that I've found that has both filters, AND the ability to have it leave my mail on the server for "x" number of days, so that I have the chance to download it at home AND does not restrict you to using only one window at a time (beat that! ;-). That said, it does not at all surprise me that M$ regexes can't *always* seem to pick out [Zope] from the subject line, although it DOES always succeed in determining who the message is from, as long as the list server writes the headers the same way every time (as does Lyris, for example). And as soon as I start thinking about that, I begin to wonder why on earth the server would NOT write the headers the same way every time?!?! It just doesn't make sense! After all, the whole beauty of server-side processing is a.) control, and b.) consistency, because you are not dependant upon the client! (Which is why JavaScript sucks! -- Because you're at the mercy of the client!) So, at any rate, I hope I don't lead too many down the wrong path to any bigger arguments with this thread, so I'll just close with saying that IMHO that wonderfully configurable, flexible, *nix server should do The Right Thing. If we disagree -- Then, well, I guess I'll just agree to disagree, and I'll create another filter that deletes the stragglers that get mixed up in the Inbox. ------------------------------ -- Jon S. Jaques --------------- -- Systems Administrator ------- -- Network Publications, Inc. -- ------------------------------
-----Original Message----- From: Andreas Kostyrka [mailto:andreas@mtg.co.at] Sent: Friday, September 03, 1999 12:14 PM To: Jon S. Jaques Cc: zope@zope.org Subject: Re: [Zope] Zope Mailing List Software is hugely inconsistent!
On Fri, 3 Sep 1999, Jon S. Jaques wrote:
Hi All,
Does anybody know what list software Zope is using?!?!? The headers of messages that I receive from the list are SOOOoooo inconsistent that they have defied my filters again and again! Well, try these: :0 : *^Sender: zope-dev-admin@zope.org /home/andreas/mail/bobo
:0 : *^Sender: zope-admin@zope.org /home/andreas/mail/bobo
Works like a charm here. Perhaps you ought to upgrade your mailer to something sensible. Perhaps you even ought to upgrade your operating environment to something sensible ;)
If there's a moderator listening out there, please, do anything
you can to
rectify this! As I am subscribed to *several* high-volume lists, it's a serious problem when messages from the list continually land in my Inbox, along with my business-related email. *lol* You are using a mailer where you cannot really configure the filtering for business? (Because either this is not possible, or it's not userfriendly enough for you to do it, right? *lol*)
Much fun outlooking ;)
Andreas -- Andreas Kostyrka | andreas@mtg.co.at phone: +43/1/7070750 | phone: +43/676/4091256 MTG Handelsges.m.b.H. | fax: +43/1/7065299 Raiffeisenstr. 16/9 | 2320 Zwoelfaxing AUSTRIA
More to the point, however, Outlook is the one program that I've found that has both filters, AND the ability to have it leave my mail on the server for "x" number of days, so that I have the chance to download it at home AND does not restrict you to using only one window at a time (beat that! ;-).
My Eudora does this just fine, and does a fine job filtering... uhoh, not a 'my software is better' war...
That said, it does not at all surprise me that M$ regexes can't *always* seem to pick out [Zope] from the subject line, although it DOES always succeed in determining who the message is from, as long as the list server writes the headers the same way every time (as does Lyris, for example).
Again. no problem here. 'Any recipient == zope@zope.org ==> into mailbox zope/zope' except where mj@antraciet.nl, so's I see direct replies to my postings in my Inbox...
And as soon as I start thinking about that, I begin to wonder why on earth the server would NOT write the headers the same way every time?!?! It just doesn't make sense! After all, the whole beauty of server-side processing is a.) control, and b.) consistency, because you are not dependant upon the client! (Which is why JavaScript sucks! -- Because you're at the mercy of the client!)
The headers are consistent.. just not the once you think. There are certain rules to adhere to when using mailing list software, and unfortunately not all mailing list managers do a good job. From, To, CC, BCC and Reply-To are not to be touched, for various reasons. Headers that are added by MailMan (the package used for all but one Zope related lists I know) adds the following headers: Sender: zope-admin@zope.org Errors-To: zope-admin@zope.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0b8 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Users of the Z Object Publishing Environment <zope.zope.org> X-BeenThere: zope@zope.org Sender, Errors-To, List-ID and X-BeenThere will all do nicely for your purposes. Let's hope that Outlooks overly hiding-the-tecnique-for-your-own-good interface will let you add a rule that selects on either of these.
So, at any rate, I hope I don't lead too many down the wrong path to any bigger arguments with this thread, so I'll just close with saying that IMHO that wonderfully configurable, flexible, *nix server should do The Right Thing.
If we disagree -- Then, well, I guess I'll just agree to disagree, and I'll create another filter that deletes the stragglers that get mixed up in the Inbox.
Hmmm.. I think that we would go down the totaly wrong pathway here if we try to accomodate erroneous Microsoft software all the time. =) -- Martijn Pieters, Web Developer | Antraciet http://www.antraciet.nl | T: +31 35 7502100 F: +31 35 7502111 | mj@antraciet.nl http://www.antraciet.nl/~mj | PGP: http://wwwkeys.nl.pgp.net:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xA8A32149 ---------------------------------------------
Hey, How's it going? You know, I used to use Eudora religiously (v1 through v3, and Pro, not lite), but I just got so burned out on being restricted within the "space" of the Eudora interface -- I far prefer being able to have messages free-floating anywhere on my nice 19" monitor, without having to have the main interface huge. Also, I seem to recall that it did not seem to be multi-threaded, so that anytime it was doing anything, like sending or receiving mail, you just had to wait for it. On a modem, that really sucked! (Also, Eudora did not gracefully deal with HTML mail.) What version are you running? Are any of these things overcome yet? I think I *tried* v4, Pro, but on top of the old issues, it was also bloated. To answer your question as to whether or not Outlook would let you filter on those specific fields: Nothing (that I've ever seen) filters as good as Eudora! And the only thing that even comes close is Outlook! Specifically of all the lists that I subscribe to, if the headers are consistent, there is no problem.
uhoh, not a 'my software is better' war...
Please, I agree whole-heartedly - if there's a solution, I'm all for it.
unfortunately not all mailing list managers do a good job. From, To, CC, BCC and Reply-To are not to be touched, for various reasons. Headers that are added by MailMan (the package used for all but one Zope related lists I know) adds the following headers:
If I run through the Zope list, I see a huge amount of variation in the From line, mostly; some messages are From: "zope-admin@zope.org on behalf of <user>", some are From "<user> on behalf of <user>", and some are just From "<user>"... is it not the list manager software that is rewriting this line? Is this difference only because sometime the messages are sent To: zope@zope.org, and sometimes they are CC'd there, instead? Sounds like a problem with the manager, to me.
Sender: zope-admin@zope.org Errors-To: zope-admin@zope.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0b8 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Users of the Z Object Publishing Environment <zope.zope.org> X-BeenThere: zope@zope.org
Hmmm, custom headers, in addition to the re-written From line?
Hmmm.. I think that we would go down the totaly wrong pathway here if we try to accomodate erroneous Microsoft software all the time. =)
Like I said, this is not about me, M$, or even email clients. It's about header consistency. IMHO, whatever is rewriting that From line should be fixed. --Jon
What is the problem here? Are you telling me you can't get your mailer to sort on a to: or cc:? Even Netscape Mail does that (and hasn't missed a message yet).. I'm sure Outlook does as well.. -Nic "Jon S. Jaques" wrote:
Is this difference only because sometime the messages are sent To: zope@zope.org, and sometimes they are CC'd there, instead? Sounds like a problem with the manager, to me.
At 22:44 3-9-99 , Jon S. Jaques wrote:
Hey, How's it going?
You know, I used to use Eudora religiously (v1 through v3, and Pro, not lite), but I just got so burned out on being restricted within the "space" of the Eudora interface -- I far prefer being able to have messages free-floating anywhere on my nice 19" monitor, without having to have the main interface huge. Also, I seem to recall that it did not seem to be multi-threaded, so that anytime it was doing anything, like sending or receiving mail, you just had to wait for it. On a modem, that really sucked! (Also, Eudora did not gracefully deal with HTML mail.)
What version are you running? Are any of these things overcome yet? I think I *tried* v4, Pro, but on top of the old issues, it was also bloated.
Version 4.2 Pro. The lack of multi-threading almost made me switch, but Qualcomm added it just in time =). Now only compacting and filtering can still keep you from reading. Version 4.2 has the best searching capabilities I have ever seen in an email client, BTW.
To answer your question as to whether or not Outlook would let you filter on those specific fields: Nothing (that I've ever seen) filters as good as Eudora! And the only thing that even comes close is Outlook! Specifically of all the lists that I subscribe to, if the headers are consistent, there is no problem.
uhoh, not a 'my software is better' war...
Please, I agree whole-heartedly - if there's a solution, I'm all for it.
unfortunately not all mailing list managers do a good job. From, To, CC, BCC and Reply-To are not to be touched, for various reasons. Headers that are added by MailMan (the package used for all but one Zope related lists I know) adds the following headers:
If I run through the Zope list, I see a huge amount of variation in the From line, mostly; some messages are From: "zope-admin@zope.org on behalf of <user>", some are From "<user> on behalf of <user>", and some are just From "<user>"... is it not the list manager software that is rewriting this line?
Is this difference only because sometime the messages are sent To: zope@zope.org, and sometimes they are CC'd there, instead? Sounds like a problem with the manager, to me.
Uhm... I do not have any rewritten From: lines. At all. Mailman does not munge those. I think either Outlook does, or your mailserver.. In Outlook 98 you can look at the original headers of the message with the obscure menu option View -> Options (on the message window).
Sender: zope-admin@zope.org Errors-To: zope-admin@zope.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0b8 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Users of the Z Object Publishing Environment <zope.zope.org> X-BeenThere: zope@zope.org
Hmmm, custom headers, in addition to the re-written From line?
Custom headers starting with an X- are really custom, and are meant for certain applications. In this case, for Mailman itself and for a human administrator of the lists. The other headers all have meaning in the context of SMTP, and are A Very Good Idea. All good mailing list managers add these. Again, Mailmam does not munge the From: address. It leaves it to the original sender, as it should.
Hmmm.. I think that we would go down the totaly wrong pathway here if we try to accomodate erroneous Microsoft software all the time. =)
Like I said, this is not about me, M$, or even email clients. It's about header consistency.
IMHO, whatever is rewriting that From line should be fixed.
I hate to say this, but I think it lies on your side. -- Martijn Pieters, Web Developer | Antraciet http://www.antraciet.nl | T: +31 35 7502100 F: +31 35 7502111 | mj@antraciet.nl http://www.antraciet.nl/~mj | PGP: http://wwwkeys.nl.pgp.net:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xA8A32149 ---------------------------------------------
Martijn Pieters wrote:
Version 4.2 has the best searching capabilities I have ever seen in an email client, BTW.
I left Eudora years ago because the search used a "wordprocessor model" instead of a "grep" model. "One hit at a time. Deal with that and then I'll give you another." Arg. Paul Prescod
At 13:39 4-9-99 , Paul Prescod wrote:
Martijn Pieters wrote:
Version 4.2 has the best searching capabilities I have ever seen in an email client, BTW.
I left Eudora years ago because the search used a "wordprocessor model" instead of a "grep" model. "One hit at a time. Deal with that and then I'll give you another." Arg.
Then give it another look. Search has been tremendously improved. -- Martijn Pieters, Web Developer | Antraciet http://www.antraciet.nl | T: +31 35 7502100 F: +31 35 7502111 | mj@antraciet.nl http://www.antraciet.nl/~mj | PGP: http://wwwkeys.nl.pgp.net:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xA8A32149 ---------------------------------------------
On Fri, 3 Sep 1999, Jon S. Jaques wrote:
That said, it does not at all surprise me that M$ regexes can't *always* seem to pick out [Zope] from the subject line, although it DOES always succeed in determining who the message is from, as long as the list server writes the headers the same way every time (as does Lyris, for example). Well, it does. The header you are looking for is Sender, which identifies the real sender as the mailing list. It's always the same. Sorry if it is not for you, you should look for bugs in your mail server. It is consistent here.
Andreas -- Andreas Kostyrka | andreas@mtg.co.at phone: +43/1/7070750 | phone: +43/676/4091256 MTG Handelsges.m.b.H. | fax: +43/1/7065299 Raiffeisenstr. 16/9 | 2320 Zwoelfaxing AUSTRIA
Every message from the list has '[Zope]' in the subject. My mailfilter keys on that, and it hasn't failed yet. Hope this helps. - John ----- Original Message ----- From: Jon S. Jaques <lists@almus.com> To: <zope@zope.org> Sent: Friday, September 03, 1999 12:48 PM Subject: [Zope] Zope Mailing List Software is hugely inconsistent!
Hi All,
Does anybody know what list software Zope is using?!?!? The headers of messages that I receive from the list are SOOOoooo inconsistent that they have defied my filters again and again!
If there's a moderator listening out there, please, do anything you can to rectify this! As I am subscribed to *several* high-volume lists, it's a serious problem when messages from the list continually land in my Inbox, along with my business-related email.
Thanks!
------------------------------ -- Jon S. Jaques --------------- -- Systems Administrator ------- -- Network Publications, Inc. -- ------------------------------
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participants (8)
-
Andreas Kostyrka -
Christopher Petrilli -
Doug Hellmann -
John Turner -
Jon S. Jaques -
Martijn Pieters -
Nicolas Pottier -
Paul Prescod