Hello :) I'm just getting started with Zope. I"ve purchased (and am currently reading) the Zope Bible. I've also had a few looks through the Zope.org site. I was wondering if someone could point me to other sources of newbie-type documentation. I'm comfortable working with Python, but the jump to Zope seems to have left me twiddling my thumbs. Simple things, like why I can't use certain modules in "Script (Python)"s, how can I use Python to read the contents of another object, etc. I had jumped into Zope thinking that my knowledge of Python made it a good choice for me to develop web applications in Python with, but it seems I'm up for learning at least a handful of new technologies/acronyms (DTML, Zope API, and TAL/TALES/METAL). I looked through the zope mailling list archive page and it seems as though the numbers are slowly spiraling downward. I was surprised when I signed up for the list yesterday that there wasn't more traffic than there is. Are there other mailing lists or forums anyone would recommend for me to be a part of, something that'll let me ask all the stupid new guy questions? Thanks, Jay
Love newbies since I still feel like one after 3+ years of Zopedom. :) You got a book, that is a great start. The next is to really start playing around with Zope. Set it up, get in there and see how things are done. Download and install products and see how they do things. Examples are the best way to learn (IMHO). Sites: http://www.zopezen.org http://www.zopelabs.com http://www.plope.com (a bit of weblog for Chris M.) (I would put the one I am building in the list, but it is below). There are a bunch of good articles on DTML and ZPT over at http://www.devshed.com/Server_Side/Zope That should keep you reading. You can either pick DTML or go with the newer ZPT (I am still in DTML land). This list is not very "chatty" just down to business. Enjoy. Jake -- http://www.ZopeZone.com Jay Dorsey said:
Hello :)
I'm just getting started with Zope. I"ve purchased (and am currently reading) the Zope Bible.
I've also had a few looks through the Zope.org site. I was wondering if someone could point me to other sources of newbie-type documentation.
I'm comfortable working with Python, but the jump to Zope seems to have left me twiddling my thumbs. Simple things, like why I can't use certain modules in "Script (Python)"s, how can I use Python to read the contents of another object, etc.
I had jumped into Zope thinking that my knowledge of Python made it a good choice for me to develop web applications in Python with, but it seems I'm up for learning at least a handful of new technologies/acronyms (DTML, Zope API, and TAL/TALES/METAL).
I looked through the zope mailling list archive page and it seems as though the numbers are slowly spiraling downward. I was surprised when I signed up for the list yesterday that there wasn't more traffic than there is. Are there other mailing lists or forums anyone would recommend for me to be a part of, something that'll let me ask all the stupid new guy questions?
Thanks,
Jay
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Jake (aka BZ) wrote:
There are a bunch of good articles on DTML and ZPT over at http://www.devshed.com/Server_Side/Zope
That should keep you reading. You can either pick DTML or go with the newer ZPT (I am still in DTML land).
Thanks for the links--the devshed site does a great job of going over the basics. DTML seems relatively straightforward to me--ZPT/TAL/TALES/METAL seems kind of "wordy" to me, but since it's "newer" I'm almost inclined to skip over DTML for now. Is there anything DTML can do that ZPT can't do? I drafted a quick site in DTML using DTML Documents for the header and footer and included them via dtml-var and it worked just great. I tried doing the same with ZPT and using tal:replace with a header and footer Page Template, and it converted the HTML to character entities because I got back the plain HTML. I'm sure it might be something obvious that I've not read into yet... Jay
Thanks for the links--the devshed site does a great job of going over the basics. DTML seems relatively straightforward to me--ZPT/TAL/TALES/METAL seems kind of "wordy" to me, but since it's "newer" I'm almost inclined to skip over DTML for now.
ZPT syntax does look more verbose than DTML, and that could be true -- though I'm not entirely convinced that's really the case. But even if you do have to do a bit more typing, ZPT will tend to save you lots more time on debugging and maintenance. It uses much less magic, has a more straightforward syntax, encourages you to keep code out of the template, and random other good things you will enventually hear about on the list or could find in the archives.
Is there anything DTML can do that ZPT can't do?
I would wager they're both Turing-complete. There may be domains where DTML is in fact easier to use: many people use DTML only for non-XML-ish rendering, like mail templates and such. And if you want to do something that relies on DTML namespace magic, it's obviously easier in DTML, though that can be emulated in ZPT.
I drafted a quick site in DTML using DTML Documents for the header and footer and included them via dtml-var and it worked just great. I tried doing the same with ZPT and using tal:replace with a header and footer Page Template, and it converted the HTML to character entities because I got back the plain HTML. I'm sure it might be something obvious that I've not read into yet...
ZPT would have you use macros for that, rather than do a straight translation of techniques from DTML. (It's not just the syntax that's different!) But your specific problem can be solved by using the 'structured' keyword in the TAL statement. --jcc -- "My point and period will be throughly wrought, Or well or ill, as this day's battle's fought."
On Wed, 2003-11-12 at 13:48, Jay Dorsey wrote:
Is there anything DTML can do that ZPT can't do?
It can help you leave work by 5:00. :-) Besides that, DTML can produce non-XML output, performs a little better and has a couple other bells and whistles going on. Many people here will tell you that anything else DTML does that ZPT doesn't is something that should be done with a Python Script anyway. Listen to them... they're right about that, though it doesn't necessarily follow that DTML is bad. BTW, if you use DTML, start with DTML *Methods* until you get deep enough in to grok the difference between methods and documents. HTH, Dylan
Jay Dorsey wrote:
Is there anything DTML can do that ZPT can't do?
Yes, but nothing you want it to. :)
I tried doing the same with ZPT and using tal:replace with a header and footer Page Template, and it converted the HTML to character entities because I got back the plain HTML. I'm sure it might be something obvious that I've not read into yet...
Yup, you should do tal:replace="structure blblsbslbsl". The "structure" tells it not to quote the content. But typically you go the otehr way around in ZPT. You make one page, and then slurp in the content, instead of making a page with content and slurping in a header and footer. Your Python knowledge will help you. But Python scrips have a specific function, and that is to do small things you want to do from the ZPT. They are secure, and therefore limited. When you want to do more advanced stuff, you create product. These are written in standard Python.
On Wed, Nov 12, 2003 at 04:47:52PM -0500, Jake (aka BZ) wrote:
Love newbies since I still feel like one after 3+ years of Zopedom. :)
You got a book, that is a great start. The next is to really start playing around with Zope. Set it up, get in there and see how things are done. Download and install products and see how they do things. Examples are the best way to learn (IMHO).
That one especially. Another great resource is the online zope book, linked on every page of zope.org. Also #zope on irc.freenode.net is not very busy but there are often helpful people there - sometimes myself :-) -- Paul Winkler http://www.slinkp.com Look! Up in the sky! It's THE GROSS MONKEY! (random hero from isometric.spaceninja.com)
I'm comfortable working with Python, but the jump to Zope seems to have left me twiddling my thumbs. Simple things, like why I can't use certain modules in "Script (Python)"s,
Security. If you can import any old module, a low-priveledged user could break your site up and down thorugh the web, starting with eating all your resources and getting worse from there. Read doc/SECURITY.txt (and the rest of those files while you're at it.)
how can I use Python to read the contents of another object, etc.
In a Python script, External Method, or any Python statement, you just get a handle to the object (how you do this varies, but is usually either acquisition or API based) and use methods from its API to talk to it: the online-help Zope docs outline most of these, you can use DocFinder or DocFinderEverywhere, or the source, which is still the definitive guide.
I had jumped into Zope thinking that my knowledge of Python made it a good choice for me to develop web applications in Python with, but it seems I'm up for learning at least a handful of new technologies/acronyms (DTML, Zope API, and TAL/TALES/METAL).
I looked through the zope mailling list archive page and it seems as though the numbers are slowly spiraling downward. I was surprised when I signed up for the list yesterday that there wasn't more traffic than there is. Are there other mailing lists or forums anyone would recommend for me to be a part of, something that'll let me ask all the stupid new guy questions?
This is pretty much the right place for that. Yesterday was surprisingly light: I attribute it to a US holiday. I actually prefer the current volumes to the crazy 100+ messages a day of not-too-long-ago. There are a number of factors, I think: new lists (language-specific, plone, product-specific lists, more zope.org lists) new sources of information (searchable archives, Zope books, user groups) new supplementary websites (zopelabs, zopezen, et al.) almost no large threads anymore This list isn't the only source of information anymore, and it's very efficient. --jcc -- "My point and period will be throughly wrought, Or well or ill, as this day's battle's fought."
J. Cameron Cooper wrote:
I'm comfortable working with Python, but the jump to Zope seems to have left me twiddling my thumbs. Simple things, like why I can't use certain modules in "Script (Python)"s,
Security. If you can import any old module, a low-priveledged user could break your site up and down thorugh the web, starting with eating all your resources and getting worse from there.
... of course they still can even with restricted python's protections in place, they just have to be marginally more creative. Know that, given the ability to author restricted python a user can easily cripple a Zope installation or run the zope process into its process resource limits. Design with that in mind. The theory of restricted python is, afaik, sound. The problem is that it is only effective in when used within a system thats built with its (r. python's) constraints in mind. Unfortunately, Zope doesn't entirely fall into that category. -- Jamie Heilman http://audible.transient.net/~jamie/ "You came all this way, without saying squat, and now you're trying to tell me a '56 Chevy can beat a '47 Buick in a dead quarter mile? I liked you better when you weren't saying squat kid." -Buddy
participants (7)
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Dylan Reinhardt -
J. Cameron Cooper -
Jake (aka BZ) -
Jamie Heilman -
Jay Dorsey -
Lennart Regebro -
Paul Winkler