For everybody who isn't aware of it, there's is a forum for Zope. www.zope-forum.org Apart from the fact that there are too few developers there, I think that forum is better than emailing. And no, I don't care if the forum is built in PHP. --- Joel Burton <joel@joelburton.com> wrote: > On Sat, 20 Oct 2001, Andrew Kenneth Milton wrote:

...

I'm looking for/want a Zope mailing list that's for more advanced programming under Zope.

zope-dev is for Zope innards, which isn't appropriate, and I think the level of some of the stuff that comes through zope@zope.org is a little low (and fairly repetitive), which seems to remove most of the skilled people from the list due to noise.

A zope-hackers type list would be quite useful I think. Anyone else think it would be a good idea?

Speaking of repetition... :-)

There's been suggestion before of a zope-novice list. The fear in the past is that that this would strand all the new users w/o any experienced users to provide support.

I spend a lot of time on the PostgreSQL mailing lists. There are about 15 lists there, divided into different interfaces, but also including a -novice, a -general, and a -hackers. I think, with little exception, it works great.

Perhaps the -general/-hackers split you're suggestion will be more palatable to our community than the -novice/-general split that has been brought up before.

Take care,

--

Joel BURTON | joel@joelburton.com | joelburton.com | aim: wjoelburton Independent Knowledge Management Consultant

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On Sat, 2001-10-20 at 08:27, Andrew Kenneth Milton wrote:

+-------[ Peter Bengtsson ]---------------------- | For everybody who isn't aware of it, there's is a | forum for Zope. | | www.zope-forum.org

If I wanted a forum, I'd have built one, and the forum product to drive it. I am not addicted to my web browser, I like email, I want to email questions, and get responses emailed to me. Is that so hard to understand?

Personally, I'd prefer newsgroups to mailing lists. A news.zope.org NNTP server along with a heirarchy of groups would do wonders, IMO. It would also help better deal with the volume that curently surges through here. Michael Bernstein.

On Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 05:07:50PM -0400, Paul Winkler wrote:

On Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 09:39:29AM -0700, Michael R. Bernstein wrote:

...

Personally, I'd prefer newsgroups to mailing lists. A news.zope.org NNTP server along with a heirarchy of groups would do wonders, IMO.

YES PLEASE!!!!!!!

NO PLEASE!!!!! We have enough spam already, we don't need more spam in a newsgroups. Oleg. -- Oleg Broytmann http://www.zope.org/Members/phd/ phd@phd.pp.ru Programmers don't die, they just GOSUB without RETURN.

On Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 05:04:52PM -0400, Paul Winkler wrote:

You'd rather have 200+ messages a day dumped into your inbox

Before anybody jumps on me about the number - I apologize, it's incorrect. I currently get about 80 messages / day total from the zope and zope-cmf mailing lists. -- paul winkler home: http://www.slinkp.com music: http://www.reacharms.com calendars: http://www.calendargalaxy.com

On Sun, 2001-10-21 at 15:29, Jan-Frode Myklebust wrote:

On Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 05:17:34PM -0400, Paul Winkler wrote:

...

On Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 05:04:52PM -0400, Paul Winkler wrote:

...

You'd rather have 200+ messages a day dumped into your inbox

Before anybody jumps on me about the number - I apologize, it's incorrect. I currently get about 80 messages / day total from the zope and zope-cmf mailing lists.

I'll jump at something else.. Getting all of the zope mailinglist into your inbox sounds like your real problem. Set up a mailfilter to sort out all zope messages to a separate folder, and the problem should be solved.

Not really. I filter every list into dedicated folders. My Zope folder currently has over 8000 messages in it, and over 6000 of them are unread. With a newsgroup and a good newsreader, I could mark threads as 'ignored' and not get any followups to them, cutting down on the volume. There are other tools besides this that just don't work in a mailing-list environment I do like the idea of a mailing-list newsgroup gateway, though. Michael Bernstein.

Hi! I think this discussion should be split in two threads :-) a) What sort of technology do we need? b) What sort of content do we need? If I'm in the desperate need of an answer to a very serious question, and you'd be the person to answer it, I would seriously have no problem text messaging you on your mobile phone. :-) IMHO, these two things shouldn't be mixed up. I don't want to communicate with people who find NNTP, usenet, or a mailing list the most appropriate method of communication. I want to communicate with people who talk about the same subjects that I do, in the same language that I do. Yes, language also as in "level of qualification, experience and sophistication". Of course that border gets blurry. Personally, I'm fine with mailing lists. On the other side, I'm fine with a lot of things. Whatever you'll do, there will be advantages and disadvantages you get with the chosen method of communication. But that was not Andrew's point. He was talking about the different levels of interest and knowledge that the different people have that are currently communicating _all_ on the same list. He could have made the same point with _all_ of us in the same newsgroup, couldn't he? There are _messages_ about certain _subjects_, and my computer is still not smart enough to do my work and read the _subject_ lines in order to find out whether reading the whole message might be worth the time. Yes, I let my email client sort the messages into folders (I don't have zope@zope.org in my inbox, I would have gone nuts by now). Yes, if I have a very specific question I search the mailing list archives first (at NIP btw). But that's not the point. I totally support a "spin-off" of this mailing lists for more in-depth discussions. zope-dev is something else. zope-dev has become a mailinglist mostly for people who comunicate with each other about the development of Zope _itself_. After being on zope@zope.org for, I dont' know, two years? now, I find myself downloading approx. 80 messages a day, strolling through them every two days, and the number of mails that I find interesting has shrunk down to about three per day. While as a newbie I just couldn't get enough, and everything was new, interesting and exciting, I would now like to make my communication a little more efficient. Two years ago, Zope was pretty new to most of the people on the list. By today, some have advanced faster, some slower (for reasons whatsoever), and a lot of new people have joined. When I started it was mostly people who (now) work for Zope Corp that gave answers, just three or four others, who were really into it. I see a lot of questions on this list that can be answered by reading either "the Zope Book", Dieter's famous "Chapter 3" :-) or simply by searching the list archives for a single word. 99% of the newbie questions have been asked, and another 99% of these questions have been answered sufficiently. Most of them more than once, lots of them more than twice. Still, I understand that Zope's learning curve remains rather steep, even if the Management interface looks a little bit like "Windows Explorer", at first sight. There should always be a mailing list for rtfm questions, and honestly, I take time and answer very easy questions, remembering what a f***ing mess it was when I had to find out myself. Everything is simple once you know how to do it, right? But as much as I appreciated the support of that time, and as much as I try to help people to get started, I claim to have that same right to express my need for a mailing list for more experienced Zope developers. Yes, you become a very good chess player if you play against people who are better than you, and yes, if everyone thought that way and consequently only played better players, nobody would be playing a single game. But you can also become a better player by reading some good books, and good players sometimes enjoy playing _each other_. Calling this elitism is just being paranoid, imho. I think Andrew has a very good point when he says that there have evolved different levels of experience and knowledge, and I find this in no way insulting. I fully support another mailing list, hoping that if not the number then maybe the percentage of emails I find interesting might get back to the level it was when I started on zope@zope.org. If I give a two pages long explanation to someone who just needed a one-liner solution because he doesn't care "why", just "how" and "when", and I can't expect much help from that person when I am in need, then at some point the benefits of this communication go in one direction _only_. I don't see in how far it can be called elitism if someone says he's not a "manual with two legs", and expresses _his_ needs. Andrew was asking for a platform, not a hide-away. I myself would remain subscribed on both lists, write a message and _then_ ask myself which group of people I should address it to. Everyone could do it that way. (I mean, who wants to be called a "newbie" for the rest of his life? :-)) If there are people who feel offended, please let me throw this in: Andrew doesn't want to separate the people, just the postings. Same with me. If there was a mailing list just like zope@zope.org, with the difference of having the "what's acquisition?", "how do I access an object in a subfolder?" and "why do I get an error message when trying to create a folder object as superuser?" questions stripped off, and the Zope-"related" posts like "I don't want to publish my product under ZPL/GPL/whatever" remained on zope@zope.org, then that new list would have let's say 15-25 posts day, instead of 80. And the percentage of emails that are interesting for Andrew and others in a similar position might rise back to 50% or so, making it more fun and more efficient. I don't see any problem with that. Thank you very much for reading, Cheers from New Zealand, Danny On Monday 22 October 2001 10:04, Paul Winkler wrote:

On Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 05:03:19PM +0400, Oleg Broytmann wrote:

...

On Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 05:07:50PM -0400, Paul Winkler wrote:

...

On Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 09:39:29AM -0700, Michael R. Bernstein wrote:

...

Personally, I'd prefer newsgroups to mailing lists. A news.zope.org NNTP server along with a heirarchy of groups would do wonders, IMO.

YES PLEASE!!!!!!!

NO PLEASE!!!!! We have enough spam already, we don't need more spam in a newsgroups.

You'd rather have 200+ messages a day dumped into your inbox when you only care about a few of them? Yuck. If there were newsgroups I'd unsub from this list in a minute.

--

paul winkler home: http://www.slinkp.com music: http://www.reacharms.com calendars: http://www.calendargalaxy.com

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That's bad. First, I am really interesting in most of these messages - there are many hidden treasure I obtained by reading all of them.

"Hidden" is the right word here : there are so many posts, that almost no one can cope with all of them. Imho it's allways a good idea to sort things. It's allways better to have a fine level of classification than nothing. I'm quite astonished to see that zope users don't want finer level of granularity, as it is exactly what zope can provide for web dev. It's allways a good thing, imho, to have something "feasible", even if not everyone need it. I'd like to subscribe to every mailing list, and then see which one interests me (and to which posts I can answers with my still limited zope knowledge). Don't you sort your mails ?

Second, it seems you are trying to make the lists work for you without working for the lists. You want us to answer your questions, but you don't want to answer our questions.

I don't think you can oblige people to answers questions. At least, flooding their mailbox with 150 msgs per day won't help them to answer what they know and skip what they don't.

When I had information, I answer to people question. But to answer a question I must first to read it, right? So I need to read every message in the list anyway.

True if you can read, understand, and answer everything on this list. False for most humans ;-) My $0.02 Philippe

On Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 02:00:48PM -0400, Paul Winkler wrote:

I've said it before, I'll say it again... We can all be satisfied if there are multiple interfaces to the same content. comp.lang.python and the python mailing list are an excellent example. Some people read it as mail, some people read it as news; we all get the same stuff. Spam levels there are very low, signal-to-noise ratio is very high, even with much higher traffic than the zope lists.

I partially agree with this (I receive c.l.py by mail). But unfortunately I see more and more spam there. And what is worse - most spam messages arrived to the mail list by newsfeeds :( Oleg. -- Oleg Broytmann http://www.zope.org/Members/phd/ phd@phd.pp.ru Programmers don't die, they just GOSUB without RETURN.

Chris Withers wrote:

Paul Winkler wrote:

...

You'd rather have 200+ messages a day dumped into your inbox when you only care about a few of them? Yuck. If there were newsgroups I'd unsub from this list in a minute.

You've never heard of mail filtering rules?

Filters don't make it all that much less icky. Until Mozilla bug 11055 goes through, for example, I have to manually expire the folder. -- Matt Behrens <matt.behrens@kohler.com> System Analyst, Baker Furniture

On Sun, 2001-10-21 at 06:03, Oleg Broytmann wrote:

On Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 05:07:50PM -0400, Paul Winkler wrote:

...

On Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 09:39:29AM -0700, Michael R. Bernstein wrote:

...

Personally, I'd prefer newsgroups to mailing lists. A news.zope.org NNTP server along with a heirarchy of groups would do wonders, IMO.

YES PLEASE!!!!!!!

NO PLEASE!!!!! We have enough spam already, we don't need more spam in a newsgroups.

Actually, a newsgroup (on a private server, not Usenet)would have far less spam. any spam found on the newsgroup can be cancelled before too many people check the server. With an email list, once the listserver has sent out the email, that's it, everyone on the list will get it. That's one of the reasons that I like NNTP. Michael Bernstein.

On Mon, 22 Oct 2001, Behrens Matt - Grand Rapids wrote:

akm's suggestion is a good one, although whether or not it will have the desired effect is a big question mark. To do so I think it needs to avoid the stigma it seems to already have: "zope@ is for mindless newbies, zope-hackers@ is for people who can tie their shoes, zope-dev@ is for Gods". I'm not sure how to accomplish this. It's really about being in different levels of development, not about "list A has smarter people than list B".

I am going to risk having to don my asbestos suit here and say that closing ALL the lists would be extremely helpful, and it's not even about spam. Requiring at least a few seconds of lurking before posting is a great idea. If you want hand-holding and don't want to take a brief effort to see what the list is about, then you can pay someone for support. Okay, I said it, flame away.

One nitpick re naming: -hackers is historically used for what zope-dev currently is being used for. If there is going to be any change along these lines, perhaps a gradual rename of -dev to -hackers is in order, paralleled with a new list -devel or some such.

Ok, so the big questions are: (1) hwo do we want to, as a community, responsible make a decision about this? do you want to have a simple vote for "Yes, create a new -hackers list" or "No, don't" ? will the fine folks at ZopeCorp set up a new list for us if this vote is affirmative? (2) it would seem that many people would love an NNTP feed for zope's ml; few arguments are made for why that would be a bad thing as long as the email format is kept. who can set this up for us? volunteers? -- Joel BURTON | joel@joelburton.com | joelburton.com | aim: wjoelburton Independent Knowledge Management Consultant