List of "current" and deprecated products?
Hello everyone, Watching the mailing list lately, there's been a lot of messages saying that "product X is old/deprecated, and you should be using product Y instead". Like probably a few other relative newcomers developing their first few Zope solutions, this is starting to make me nervous... Is a list of current and deprecated products held in some central place? I don't monitor the release of new products religiously, so I'm using those products that are covered in (outdated?) documentation rather than continually checking to see if there's something newer & better around. Thanks in advance Dave Mitchell
David Mitchell wrote:
Hello everyone,
Watching the mailing list lately, there's been a lot of messages saying that "product X is old/deprecated, and you should be using product Y instead". Like probably a few other relative newcomers developing their first few Zope solutions, this is starting to make me nervous...
Is a list of current and deprecated products held in some central place? I don't monitor the release of new products religiously, so I'm using those products that are covered in (outdated?) documentation rather than continually checking to see if there's something newer & better around.
There is such an effort which needs help, from the people, who have worked with some of the products. http://www.my-zope.org/ProductsRating HTH, __Janko
there is no such list... jens On Thursday, Sep 19, 2002, at 09:43 US/Eastern, David Mitchell wrote:
Hello everyone,
Watching the mailing list lately, there's been a lot of messages saying that "product X is old/deprecated, and you should be using product Y instead". Like probably a few other relative newcomers developing their first few Zope solutions, this is starting to make me nervous...
Is a list of current and deprecated products held in some central place? I don't monitor the release of new products religiously, so I'm using those products that are covered in (outdated?) documentation rather than continually checking to see if there's something newer & better around.
Thanks in advance
Dave Mitchell
[David Mitchell]
Watching the mailing list lately, there's been a lot of messages saying that "product X is old/deprecated, and you should be using product Y instead". Like probably a few other relative newcomers developing their first few Zope solutions, this is starting to make me nervous...
Is a list of current and deprecated products held in some central place? I don't monitor the release of new products religiously, so I'm using those products that are covered in (outdated?) documentation rather than continually checking to see if there's something newer & better around.
There's clearly a gap. This is an opportunity for someone. They don't call it open source for nuthin! A related example: The version of OrderedFolder (which is awesome!) available from zope.org doesn't work on Windows. A more recent version is available elsewhere (0.51) that does: http://www.zope.org/Members/srichter/Products/OrderedFolder http://demo.iuveno-net.de/iuveno/Products/OrderedFolder/Download But there's no link from the former to the latter. Another related gap: Documentation is varied, redundant, and often out of date, possibly abandoned. Anybody know of a style guide for HOWTOs? Not "Here's what font to use?", but more along the lines of a suggested outline, important things to cover (e.g., what versions of Zope does this HOWTO address, what platform, etc)? It would be nice to have a rating system for HOWTOs. Anybody can publish one. That's helpful: http://shirky.com/writings/broadcast_and_community.html But you want to have a system that allows for filtering after someone publishes. All of this, it seems to me, is an opportunity for someone. Once someone cares enough about this and finds the time, they can provide a valuable resource to the community by filling in these gaps. Cheers, // mark -
(snip)
Is a list of current and deprecated products held in some central place? I don't monitor the release of new products religiously, so I'm using those products that are covered in (outdated?) documentation rather than continually checking to see if there's something newer & better around.
There's clearly a gap. This is an opportunity for someone. They don't call it open source for nuthin!
Agree completely, Mark! Unfortunately, this particular opportunity has the following characteristics: - it'll always be at least slightly out of date, meaning the maintainer will get hit with the metaphorical stick on a regular basis by ungrateful people (e.g. "Why are you recommending X? Don't you know Y is out? Don't you know ANYTHING?...") - in order to create such a list, you'd have to be across an enormously diverse group of products. I doubt whether any one person has that breadth of knowledge, save possibly someone working at zope.com fielding obscure support or technical questions day after day - to maintain the list, you'd have to have sufficient knowledge to not need to use it yourself. In other words, you'd be providing a service that you yourself wouldn't need to use. That's a BIG ask of just about anyone, unless they're getting paid to do it. Hopefully someone from zope.com will think "What a great idea!" and take it on as a skunkworks project. I can dream, can't I? Regards Dave M.
[David Mitchell]
Agree completely, Mark! Unfortunately, this particular opportunity has the following characteristics:
- it'll always be at least slightly out of date, meaning the maintainer will get hit with the metaphorical stick on a regular basis by ungrateful people (e.g. "Why are you recommending X? Don't you know Y is out? Don't you know ANYTHING?...")
Grateful or not, if they contribute/participate and provide valuable information, I'd use it.
- in order to create such a list, you'd have to be across an enormously diverse group of products. I doubt whether any <<one>> person has that breadth of knowledge, save possibly someone working at zope.com fielding obscure support or technical questions day after day
The key word there is one. Well, "person" too. Think, the net, the community.
- to maintain the list, you'd have to have sufficient knowledge to not need to use it yourself. In other words, you'd be providing a service that you yourself wouldn't need to use. That's a BIG ask of just about anyone, unless they're getting paid to do it.
Great points. Let's say there are two approaches to this: 1. One person/organization takes this on as their task to manage this information. 2. One person/organization creates a system that allows the community to manage this information. 2 seems preferable for many reasons, true? Cheers, // mark -
On Fri, 20 Sep 2002, David Mitchell wrote:
Agree completely, Mark! Unfortunately, this particular opportunity has the following characteristics: - it'll always be at least slightly out of date, meaning the maintainer will get hit with the metaphorical stick on a regular basis by ungrateful people (e.g. "Why are you recommending X? Don't you know Y is out? Don't you know ANYTHING?...") - in order to create such a list, you'd have to be across an enormously diverse group of products. I doubt whether any one person has that breadth of knowledge, save possibly someone working at zope.com fielding obscure support or technical questions day after day There are Bug Tracking Systems available which can solve those issues automatically. Perhaps I should search the archive it was about half a year ago when my mail about this issue was more or less (publically) ignored (perhaps something behind the scene was done??).
I know the Debian Bug Tracking System very well, there is Bugzilla and there is a open verison of the SourceForge software available. Why not have thos zope products controlled by those systems?
- to maintain the list, you'd have to have sufficient knowledge to not need to use it yourself. In other words, you'd be providing a service that you yourself wouldn't need to use. That's a BIG ask of just about anyone, unless they're getting paid to do it. A manually maintained list would just add another outdated document because it can't be sanely managed as you stated. But there are tools and those tools have definitely be used in projects like Zope.
Hopefully someone from zope.com will think "What a great idea!" and take it on as a skunkworks project. I can dream, can't I? Hopefully Sidnei da Silva <sidnei@x3ng.com.br> had something like this in mind in his posting.
Kind regards Andreas.
[Andreas Tille [mailto:tillea@rki.de]]
I know the Debian Bug Tracking System very well, there is Bugzilla and there is a open verison of the SourceForge software available. Why not have thos zope products controlled by those systems?
I think the original poster (OP) was referring to third party products. If that's what OP was asking about, you can hardly "control" what disparate third parties do. And I don't see why you'd want to. Publish then filter--I think that's the winning motto. Of course, it would be more accurate to say that I *believe* that. <wink> In any event, a bug tracking system tells you bugs about a given product. How does it provide answers to questions like this: 1. Should I use SiteRoot or VirtualHostMonster? 2. How best to install Zope on Platform X? 3. What's the most recommended HOWTO on Y? Cheers, // m -
On Fri, 20 Sep 2002, Mark McEahern wrote:
[Andreas Tille [mailto:tillea@rki.de]]
I know the Debian Bug Tracking System very well, there is Bugzilla and there is a open verison of the SourceForge software available. Why not have thos zope products controlled by those systems?
I think the original poster (OP) was referring to third party products. If that's what OP was asking about, you can hardly "control" what disparate third parties do. You can and you should definitely. Look at Debian or SourceForge. I repeat my example from Debian. Debian does not developing free software (with exception of the tools to run the system itself) but is just distributing it. But if you want a stable system you have to verify the quality of the software which is done using the Bug Tracking System. This means: Tools are provided to help improving the software we (I'm a Debian developer myself) are interested in. The tools are used and upstream authors will be informed about their software. So third party software developers get feedback. This is the way Open Source development works - isn't it?
And I don't see why you'd want to. To increase the quality of Zope products and attract more Zope users because of the well known quality - no matter whether they are third party or not.
Publish then filter--I think that's the winning motto. Should I really repeat in posting examples where this was a really loosing motto. Just browse the archive and you will see that you are wrong here.
Of course, it would be more accurate to say that I *believe* that. <wink> I do not believe. There are proves in the archive that you are wrong.
In any event, a bug tracking system tells you bugs about a given product. How does it provide answers to questions like this:
1. Should I use SiteRoot or VirtualHostMonster? Just grab the stuff which contains less bugs, is frequently updated and has a responsive author in case of trouble.
2. How best to install Zope on Platform X? If a product does not install on a Platform it should is just a bug. Fix it, send the patch to the author. If you get no response hijack it and inform people about it. It wouldn't be the first case that mailing a product author would have the same effect as mailing /dev/null :-(((.
3. What's the most recommended HOWTO on Y? Missing Documentation is a bug as well. We call it severity wishlist but it is just a bug. It is a question of policy. If policy states that each product has to contain a HOWTO such stuff can be easily maintained by a BTS.
Kind regards Andreas.
[Andreas Tille]
Look at Debian or SourceForge. I repeat my example from Debian. Debian does not developing free software (with exception of the tools to run the system itself) but is just distributing it. But if you want a stable system you have to verify the quality of the software which is done using the Bug Tracking System. This means: Tools are provided to help improving the software we (I'm a Debian developer myself) are interested in. The tools are used and upstream authors will be informed about their software. So third party software developers get feedback. This is the way Open Source development works - isn't it?
Makes sense. Thanks for explaining.
Publish then filter--I think that's the winning motto. Should I really repeat in posting examples where this was a really loosing motto. Just browse the archive and you will see that you are wrong here.
I don't need no stinking archives to know I'm wrong. <wink> Anyway, I think we're in violent agreement. By publish then filter, I mean for example this: Rather than putting up obstacles to people creating third party Zope products (i.e., learning and using a bug tracking system, requiring them to write documentation), let them party on. However, you can provide style guides, provide a feedback system--all voluntary stuff that lets the community generate and filter quality. If I still misunderstand your point, please clarify.
I do not believe. There are proves in the archive that you are wrong.
Rather than asserting that my entire Being is Wrong, it hurts a little less if you say, "What you are saying is not true." <wink> Cheers, // mark
On Fri, 20 Sep 2002, Mark McEahern wrote:
I don't need no stinking archives to know I'm wrong. <wink>
Anyway, I think we're in violent agreement. By publish then filter, I mean for example this:
Rather than putting up obstacles to people creating third party Zope products (i.e., learning and using a bug tracking system, requiring them to write documentation), let them party on. However, you can provide style guides, provide a feedback system--all voluntary stuff that lets the community generate and filter quality.
If I still misunderstand your point, please clarify. I think we agree in general. I'm just thinking more about the technique to realize. (Sorry - can't follow the interesting link which is provided by Sidnei - very slow connection on my side currently :-(( ).
I will not try to put obstacles to people. Just creating a repository of Zope products and linking it with a Bug Tracking facility as well as some kind f standard documentation should not be very hard for a set of volunteers. If upstream authors catch the sense they will do it themselves in most cases (I expect). If not it can be done by some interested people. There is not much to learn on systems like SourceForge or the Debian BTS (controled by mails and simple client software). Just try to have a look on those systems. It is in general much more easy than programming a Zope product.
I do not believe. There are proves in the archive that you are wrong.
Rather than asserting that my entire Being is Wrong, it hurts a little less if you say, "What you are saying is not true." <wink> Sorry - I did not want to hurd anybody. It's just the way I used to express my ideas in short.
Kind regards Andreas.
1. Should I use SiteRoot or VirtualHostMonster? 2. How best to install Zope on Platform X? 3. What's the most recommended HOWTO on Y?
The first two questions are (I think) adequately answered in the new version of the Zope Book at http://www.zope.org/Documentation/Books/ZopeBook/2_6Edition . See the Installing and Starting Zope and Virtual Hosting chapters. - C
On Sex 20 Set 2002 05:42, Andreas Tille wrote: | A manually maintained list would just add another outdated document because | it can't be sanely managed as you stated. But there are tools and those | tools have definitely be used in projects like Zope. | | > Hopefully someone from zope.com will think "What a great idea!" and take | > it on as a skunkworks project. I can dream, can't I? | | Hopefully Sidnei da Silva <sidnei@x3ng.com.br> had something like this in | mind in his posting. Exactly, thats why im dreamcatcher :) Seriously, Ive been (and still) involved with the effort of making NZO live for the last 6 months. There were a lot of discussion about this and that and no action until now. Now im dedicating my time entirely to this project and I hope to have something for you guys to look at in the next months. You can be sure that this issue was discussed a lot, soon we will start discussing it again, but first we need to have something to work on, or else we will keep discussing forever and nothing will be done. Right now im working on getting the software at zope.org updated to the latest versions of Zope and CMF. This can take some weeks. Believe me, there is more content there than i could imagine before. The whole discussion and how we are planning to solve this problems is documented on this Wiki: I hope you guys can be there when is time to put those ideas in practice and have time to volunteer and really make it happen. []'s -- Sidnei da Silva (dreamcatcher) <sidnei@x3ng.com.br> X3ng Web Technology <http://www.x3ng.com.br> GNU/Linux user 257852 Debian GNU/Linux 3.0 (Sid) 2.4.18 ppc Let the machine do the dirty work. -- "Elements of Programming Style", Kernighan and Ritchie
On Sex 20 Set 2002 11:54, Sidnei da Silva wrote: | The whole discussion and how we are planning to solve this problems is | documented on this Wiki: Forgot to paste the link, sorry. http://www.zope.org//projects/nzo/FrontPage []'s -- Sidnei da Silva (dreamcatcher) <sidnei@x3ng.com.br> X3ng Web Technology <http://www.x3ng.com.br> GNU/Linux user 257852 Debian GNU/Linux 3.0 (Sid) 2.4.18 ppc A modem is a baudy house.
On Qui 19 Set 2002 10:43, David Mitchell wrote: | Hello everyone, | | Watching the mailing list lately, there's been a lot of messages saying | that "product X is old/deprecated, and you should be using product Y | instead". Like probably a few other relative newcomers developing their | first few Zope solutions, this is starting to make me nervous... | | Is a list of current and deprecated products held in some central place? I | don't monitor the release of new products religiously, so I'm using those | products that are covered in (outdated?) documentation rather than | continually checking to see if there's something newer & better around. Theres no such thing currently, but there are plans to have this when the new version of Zope.org arrives (no date yet). There are also plans to make Zope Products possible to update TTW. []'s -- Sidnei da Silva (dreamcatcher) <sidnei@x3ng.com.br> X3ng Web Technology <http://www.x3ng.com.br> GNU/Linux user 257852 Debian GNU/Linux 3.0 (Sid) 2.4.18 ppc A Linux machine! because a 486 is a terrible thing to waste! (By jjs@wintermute.ucr.edu, Joe Sloan)
participants (7)
-
Andreas Tille -
Chris McDonough -
David Mitchell -
Janko Hauser -
Jens Vagelpohl -
Mark McEahern -
Sidnei da Silva