Factoids for supporting zope
I am going through a justification (risks) of the use of Zope for a corporate client. Framing things as an Open Source play relies on the health of its community for its longevity and access to expertise for support. I remember some number tossed out when the Members folder at zope.org went to Btree. What is the current # of Members? Is this an estimate of the Zope community? I think there is probably some dead wood in that # but at least its an estimate. I remember it being over 10K. Our client thought that the recent VC money was about 1/2 what would be needed to make it fly. My argument is that money is leveraged by the active Zope community so a crux in my logic is how strong this community is. Other support? Regards, Albert Boulanger aboulanger@vpatch.com
----- Original Message ----- From: "albert boulanger" <aboulang@ldeo.columbia.edu> To: <zope@zope.org> Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2000 9:37 AM Subject: [Zope] Factoids for supporting zope
I am going through a justification (risks) of the use of Zope for a corporate client. Framing things as an Open Source play relies on the health of its community for its longevity and access to expertise for support. I remember some number tossed out when the Members folder at zope.org went to Btree. What is the current # of Members? Is this an estimate of the Zope community? I think there is probably some dead wood in that # but at least its an estimate. I remember it being over 10K.
Not sure...
Our client thought that the recent VC money was about 1/2 what would be needed to make it fly. My argument is that money is leveraged by the active Zope community so a crux in my logic is how strong this community is.
1/2 of what would be needed to make it fly with Zope? Or 1/2 of what would be needed with any app server?
From: "Chris McDonough" <chrism@digicool.com> References: <200011281437.JAA01077@ox.ldgo.columbia.edu> Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 10:04:02 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.3018.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Length: 1049 ----- Original Message ----- From: "albert boulanger" <aboulang@ldeo.columbia.edu> To: <zope@zope.org> Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2000 9:37 AM Subject: [Zope] Factoids for supporting zope
I am going through a justification (risks) of the use of Zope for a corporate client. Framing things as an Open Source play relies on the health of its community for its longevity and access to expertise for support. I remember some number tossed out when the Members folder at zope.org went to Btree. What is the current # of Members? Is this an estimate of the Zope community? I think there is probably some dead wood in that # but at least its an estimate. I remember it being over 10K.
Not sure...
Our client thought that the recent VC money was about 1/2 what would be needed to make it fly. My argument is that money is leveraged by the active Zope community so a crux in my logic is how strong this community is.
1/2 of what would be needed to make it fly with Zope? Or 1/2 of what would be needed with any app server? Since they come from a non Zope context it would be from the general position and the onus is on me to bring in the Zope context in the construction of my argument. Regards, Albert
Our client thought that the recent VC money was about 1/2 what would be needed to make it fly. My argument is that money is leveraged by the active Zope community so a crux in my logic is how strong this community is.
1/2 of what would be needed to make it fly with Zope? Or 1/2 of what would be needed with any app server?
Since they come from a non Zope context it would be from the general position and the onus is on me to bring in the Zope context in the construction of my argument.
Ah. Well, my opinion is that it'd be fairly dangerous to make the assertion that (as great as they both are) Zope and the Zope community can "make up for" the other half of the capital they need to develop the software they want. So what's the decision they're trying to make? Whether to develop at all?
From: "Chris McDonough" <chrism@digicool.com> Cc: <zope@zope.org> References: <200011281450.JAA01114@ox.ldgo.columbia.edu> Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 11:41:50 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.3018.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Length: 851
Our client thought that the recent VC money was about 1/2 what would be needed to make it fly. My argument is that money is leveraged by the active Zope community so a crux in my logic is how strong this community is.
1/2 of what would be needed to make it fly with Zope? Or 1/2 of what would be needed with any app server?
Since they come from a non Zope context it would be from the general position and the onus is on me to bring in the Zope context in the construction of my argument.
Ah. Well, my opinion is that it'd be fairly dangerous to make the assertion that (as great as they both are) Zope and the Zope community can "make up for" the other half of the capital they need to develop the software they want. So what's the decision they're trying to make? Whether to develop at all? Whether to go with portal products from Plumtree or iPlanet.
Ah. Well, my opinion is that it'd be fairly dangerous to make the assertion that (as great as they both are) Zope and the Zope community can "make up for" the other half of the capital they need to develop the software they want. So what's the decision they're trying to make? Whether to develop at all?
Whether to go with portal products from Plumtree or iPlanet.
I'm not sure I understand... they know they don't have enough money to build what they want, but they're going to do it anyway? Isn't this a recipe for disaster?
Ah. Well, my opinion is that it'd be fairly dangerous to make the assertion that (as great as they both are) Zope and the Zope community can "make up for" the other half of the capital they need to develop the software they want. So what's the decision they're trying to make? Whether to develop at all?
Whether to go with portal products from Plumtree or iPlanet.
I am reading between the lines here. I think that the original poster has an argument inside his company. He wants to use Zope, and some office droid did financial research and concluded that Zope was undercapitalized. I think there are two questions to be posed here: 1) Does Zope, in its current state, do what the poster needs to have done? If so, it is capitalization should have no effect on the decision whatsoever, he has source, even if DC folds Zope will live on in some form. 2) If not, well, what does he need? Has DC been contacted regarding these needs? One worthwhile observation is that DC claims to have been profitable prior to the VC investment. I am not privy to strategy or details of DC's capitalization. But, they do have a track record of profitablity and reasonable prudence. With good management and luck, they will remain profitable, and that is the end need for a business. If they stay profitable, they remain a business; if they never become profitable, it does not matter how they are capitalized, they will not survive. Jim
I am reading between the lines here. I think that the original poster has an argument inside his company. He wants to use Zope, and some office droid did financial research and concluded that Zope was undercapitalized.
I think there are two questions to be posed here:
1) Does Zope, in its current state, do what the poster needs to have done? If so, it is capitalization should have no effect on the decision whatsoever, he has source, even if DC folds Zope will live on in some form.
I agree. DC and Zope are connected but if DC were to fold tomorrow (and trust me they are no where near folding) Zope would live on. There are thousands of active developers out there that would take it and run with it if DC decided not to. There are websites and structures to help in this day of Open Source 'openness'.
One worthwhile observation is that DC claims to have been profitable prior to the VC investment. I am not privy to strategy or details of DC's capitalization. But, they do have a track record of profitablity and reasonable prudence. With good management and luck, they will remain profitable, and that is the end need for a business. If they stay profitable, they remain a business; if they never become profitable, it does not matter how they are capitalized, they will not survive.
I am sure that DC was profitable (I think they said two quarters before the 12 Mil). They were doing a lot of consulting and if you check their rates "2,300/day for work at a customer site and $1,800/day for work performed on Digital Creations premises" that is pretty darn good. They obviously had something to do with http://www.cbsnewyork.com and I am also sure that CBS has some nice deep pockets. DC has been very smart in this market by creating and backing a good product, getting developer and designer buy-in and creating an undercurrent. Selling Zope would have been foolish, as proven by open sourcing ZEO. At the end of the day Zope is going to be around as long as it is a powerful open source tool that can solve so many problems with such ease. There is no question that Zope and DC are about to take a big turn in the market. I say hold on to your hats. J
I agree. DC and Zope are connected but if DC were to fold tomorrow (and trust me they are no where near folding) Zope would live on. There are thousands of active developers out there that would take it and run with it if DC decided not to. There are websites and structures to help in this day of Open Source 'openness'. Yes, I wanted to get an estimate of this community. Can anyone tell me how large the Members folder is currently at Zope.org? I recall a number being greater than 10K when Zope.org switched to Btree for the Members folder. Regards, Albert Boulanger
http://www.zope.org/Documentation/ZWN/ZWN-2000-11-08 That should give you a good idea... My guess is that there are probably 1-2,000 active developers with more like 500 very active (building products, submitting bugs, betas and code). You should, however, be careful with these numbers b/c some of the more success Open Source projects are run by under 10 developers (Postgresql for one). The three big things that point to a bright future of Zope/DC and that any business clown should be able to figure out are... 1) DC was profitable as a consulting company 2) DC just got $12,000,000 in a harsh market 3) Guido and his python dev team are now at DC Again... this is time break out and rejoice. We might have to rename 2001 "The Year of Zope". J At 1:03 PM -0500 11/28/2000, albert boulanger wrote:
I agree. DC and Zope are connected but if DC were to fold tomorrow (and trust me they are no where near folding) Zope would live on. There are thousands of active developers out there that would take it and run with it if DC decided not to. There are websites and structures to help in this day of Open Source 'openness'.
Yes, I wanted to get an estimate of this community. Can anyone tell me how large the Members folder is currently at Zope.org? I recall a number being greater than 10K when Zope.org switched to Btree for the Members folder.
Regards, Albert Boulanger
At 11/28/00 11:34 AM, albert boulanger wrote:
From: "Chris McDonough" <chrism@digicool.com>
Ah. Well, my opinion is that it'd be fairly dangerous to make the assertion that (as great as they both are) Zope and the Zope community can "make up for" the other half of the capital they need to develop the software they want. So what's the decision they're trying to make? Whether to develop at all?
Whether to go with portal products from Plumtree or iPlanet.
If this implies that you are considering using Zope's PTK, then you should be aware of this: You can *not* get commercial support from Digital Creations for PTK because PTK is not a released product. If you think you may need such support before PTK gets to 1.0, then you had best not use the PTK. But that's no reason to not use the rest of Zope. -- Dennis Nichols nichols@tradingconnections.com
Dennis Nichols wrote:
At 11/28/00 11:34 AM, albert boulanger wrote:
Whether to go with portal products from Plumtree or iPlanet.
If this implies that you are considering using Zope's PTK, then you should be aware of this: You can *not* get commercial support from Digital Creations for PTK because PTK is not a released product. If you think you may need such support before PTK gets to 1.0, then you had best not use the PTK. But that's no reason to not use the rest of Zope.
This needs to be clarified. We actively do consulting with the PTK. If you want to enter into a consulting contract with Digital Creations that involves the PTK, that's not a problem. If you decide you want to use the PTK yourself, there exists a mailing list and a product tracker. (see http://www.zope.org/Products/PTK ) The PTK is under heavy development and is not a full release yet, so that does need to be taken into account if you wish to use it yourself. ethan mindlace fremen Zopatista Community Liason
At 11/29/00 03:42 PM, ethan mindlace fremen wrote:
Dennis Nichols wrote:
At 11/28/00 11:34 AM, albert boulanger wrote:
Whether to go with portal products from Plumtree or iPlanet.
If this implies that you are considering using Zope's PTK, then you should be aware of this: You can *not* get commercial support from Digital Creations for PTK because PTK is not a released product. If you think you may need such support before PTK gets to 1.0, then you had best not use the PTK. But that's no reason to not use the rest of Zope.
This needs to be clarified. We actively do consulting with the PTK. If you want to enter into a consulting contract with Digital Creations that involves the PTK, that's not a problem.
If you decide you want to use the PTK yourself, there exists a mailing list and a product tracker. (see http://www.zope.org/Products/PTK ) The PTK is under heavy development and is not a full release yet, so that does need to be taken into account if you wish to use it yourself.
What Ethan says, however true it may be, is contrary to my experience. I worked on developing a site based on PTK for several months and was within a month of going live, but had problems I could not solve, either alone or with the help of the mailing lists. I contacted DC via email, explained what my problems were, and asked how to arrange for consulting time. That was 11 weeks ago, on 10 Sept 2000. The very next day I received an email from Gary Graham (gary@digicool.com, Director, Sales & Marketing) stating: "PTK is a 0.01 release and not commercially supported yet. Zope is commercially supported yet. Zope.org is the best PTK source at present until we are able to release a commercially supportable version." Of course, PTK wasn't a 0.01 release at that point, but the message was clear. That caused me to (a) look for a substitute not using Zope, of which I found nothing worth considering, and (b) expend an extra two months redeveloping the site, still using Zope but not using the PTK. This caused substantial lateness in the project launch as well as considerable additional expense. As you might imagine, I was none too pleased at not being able to obtain consulting in September. To hear that consulting really was available isn't about to make me any happier! So Ethan, what is the story here? -- Dennis Nichols nichols@tradingconnections.com
I'll take the blame on this miscommunication. I'm the one that told Gary not to take support contracts on PTK. We have a nearly ironclad support policy: we don't support stuff that isn't official. We won't support ZDiscussions, for instance. If we had to support everything we made available, then we'd stop making as much stuff available. Consulting, on the other hand, is a different story. As Ethan noted, we use PTK stuff in our consulting engagements, because we are directly involved in the development of the solution and know where the bodies are buried. :^) PTK is part of our march towards getting into content management, and I agree that we need to march quickly to a 1.0 release. --Paul Paul Everitt Digital Creations paul@digicool.com 540.371.6909 ----------------------------------------- The Open Source Zope application server http://www.zope.org/ ----------------------------------------- Dennis Nichols wrote:
At 11/29/00 03:42 PM, ethan mindlace fremen wrote:
Dennis Nichols wrote:
At 11/28/00 11:34 AM, albert boulanger wrote:
Whether to go with portal products from Plumtree or iPlanet.
If this implies that you are considering using Zope's PTK, then you should be aware of this: You can *not* get commercial support from Digital Creations for PTK because PTK is not a released product. If you think you may need such support before PTK gets to 1.0, then you had best not use the PTK. But that's no reason to not use the rest of Zope.
This needs to be clarified. We actively do consulting with the PTK. If you want to enter into a consulting contract with Digital Creations that involves the PTK, that's not a problem.
If you decide you want to use the PTK yourself, there exists a mailing list and a product tracker. (see http://www.zope.org/Products/PTK ) The PTK is under heavy development and is not a full release yet, so that does need to be taken into account if you wish to use it yourself.
What Ethan says, however true it may be, is contrary to my experience. I worked on developing a site based on PTK for several months and was within a month of going live, but had problems I could not solve, either alone or with the help of the mailing lists. I contacted DC via email, explained what my problems were, and asked how to arrange for consulting time. That was 11 weeks ago, on 10 Sept 2000. The very next day I received an email from Gary Graham (gary@digicool.com, Director, Sales & Marketing) stating:
"PTK is a 0.01 release and not commercially supported yet. Zope is commercially supported yet. Zope.org is the best PTK source at present until we are able to release a commercially supportable version."
Of course, PTK wasn't a 0.01 release at that point, but the message was clear. That caused me to (a) look for a substitute not using Zope, of which I found nothing worth considering, and (b) expend an extra two months redeveloping the site, still using Zope but not using the PTK. This caused substantial lateness in the project launch as well as considerable additional expense.
As you might imagine, I was none too pleased at not being able to obtain consulting in September. To hear that consulting really was available isn't about to make me any happier!
So Ethan, what is the story here?
-- Dennis Nichols nichols@tradingconnections.com
_______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Paul Everitt wrote:
I'll take the blame on this miscommunication. I'm the one that told Gary not to take support contracts on PTK.
We have a nearly ironclad support policy: we don't support stuff that isn't official. We won't support ZDiscussions, for instance. If we had to support everything we made available, then we'd stop making as much stuff available.
Consulting, on the other hand, is a different story. As Ethan noted, we use PTK stuff in our consulting engagements, because we are directly involved in the development of the solution and know where the bodies are buried. :^)
Ok, then. What is the difference (or the line) between support and consultation? And on which side of it does a plea of "Please help me make this work, I've got money" fall? I've certainly been in the position of trying to get something to work, and asking "How much to fix this?" without even getting a response. Michael Bernstein.
I'll answer your last point first. If you've sent a note to info@digicool.com asking for commercial support or consulting and not gotten a response, email me privately and we'll get it cleared up. For the past six months we've had our heads buried in the sand, slaving away like starving dogs to get the investment closed. Believe me, it was hard. This also meant that we turned away a lot of work because we were maxed out and not hiring. We now have capacity and plenty, plenty of long-term running room now to maneuver. So if anybody wants DC for anything, well, let's rumble. :^) Your first question is also good. The line between support and consulting is awfully vague, but also very dangerous. Support is only profitable if it's reasonably constrained and quantifiable. If someone is able to get 80 hours of work off a single-incident support ticket, then, errm, our effective rate wouldn't keep a lemonade stand in operation. :^) Thus, support is constrained to things that _should_ work (shipping versions) in environments that we can easily reproduce (OS and RDBMS combinations that we have internally.) Again, we now have a lot more room to maneuver, so we'd really like to do everything it takes to take care of people that want our commercial services, be it support or consulting. --Paul On 12/1/00 1:50 AM, "Michael Bernstein" <webmaven@lvcm.com> wrote:
Paul Everitt wrote:
I'll take the blame on this miscommunication. I'm the one that told Gary not to take support contracts on PTK.
We have a nearly ironclad support policy: we don't support stuff that isn't official. We won't support ZDiscussions, for instance. If we had to support everything we made available, then we'd stop making as much stuff available.
Consulting, on the other hand, is a different story. As Ethan noted, we use PTK stuff in our consulting engagements, because we are directly involved in the development of the solution and know where the bodies are buried. :^)
Ok, then. What is the difference (or the line) between support and consultation? And on which side of it does a plea of "Please help me make this work, I've got money" fall? I've certainly been in the position of trying to get something to work, and asking "How much to fix this?" without even getting a response.
Michael Bernstein.
From: "Chris McDonough" <chrism@digicool.com> References: <200011281437.JAA01077@ox.ldgo.columbia.edu> Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 10:04:02 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.3018.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Length: 1049
Our client thought that the recent VC money was about 1/2 what would be needed to make it fly. My argument is that money is leveraged by the active Zope community so a crux in my logic is how strong this community is.
1/2 of what would be needed to make it fly with Zope? Or 1/2 of what would be needed with any app server? A clarification here. It refers to Digital Creations being a long term viable business entity.
A clarification here. It refers to Digital Creations being a long term viable business entity.
Ohhhhhhh... ;-) Well, nothing beyond the general open-source mantra marketing and the stuff that's on digicool.com will convince them of what they don't want to believe. It's interesting that the amount of money we're lacking to do what is "needed" has been actually quantified by your client, as what is needed is not defined. ;-) I think perhaps the strongest real-world argument you could potentially provide is that survival of Zope is independent of the survival of Digital Creations. Although I think we're doing pretty darn well. :-)
A clarification here. It refers to Digital Creations being a long term viable business entity.
When we made "The Zope Decision", one of the attractions of the Zope/DC relationship is that whilst it is obviously very nice for everyone if DC continues to exist, and continues with their current strategy, we aren't held hostage to their fortune. Consider a possible experience with a proprietary vendor. At the moment you have an excellent relationship with them, the product is good, and their future plans are encouraging. Then they change strategy, or get bought out - not an unlikely outcome in new markets where things are still playing out. Then all of a sudden you find: - the pricing has changed dramatically - the product has moved - the vendor no longer cares about you Ouch. Have you ever had a vendor "end of life" a product on you? With Zope, that's not going to happen. If DC change their strategy dramatically then: - if there's the demand, someone else will step into their shoes (like maintaining the ages old version of Zope that DC not longer support) - if you want to, you can do it yourselves (or pay someone else) For my money, going with a proprietary vendor is even more risky than going with an Open Source product. The proprietary lock in means the vendor holds all the cards, and you hold none. The cool thing about DC/Zope is you get the best of the Open Source and commercial worlds - its Open Source when you need it, but there's a nice cuddley vendor to buy support and consulting from (as well as a load of independent organisations :-) Zope gives you more choices, and total control over your future. Proprietary, closed source solutions are just lulling you into a false sense of security - until its no longer in the vendor's interest to deal with you. Simon -- --------- My opinions are my own, NIP's opinions are theirs ---------- Simon J. Coles Email: simon@nipltd.com New Information Paradigms Work Phone: +44 1344 753703 http://www.nipltd.com/ Work Fax: +44 1344 753742 =============== Life is too precious to take seriously ===============
My argument is that money is leveraged by the active Zope community so a crux in my logic is how strong this community is.
Other support?
Hi Albert. I'm not sure about the first part of the question, so i'll go to the second query. Our company uses zope in a combination of consumer and commercial applications. We find it very powerful, very fast, and quite flexible -- though this last comes later. Pluses: The Zope community is very strong, and very supportive. Queries to the list get answered fairly quickly, and, tend to be in direct proportion to the quality of the question asked. I have also found the tone of reponses to be respectful -- unlike some other obnoxious lists, you tend not to get an answer "Read the Man page!" Replies will range from detailed information on the specific problem to a recommendation of existing documentation that might have already addressed the problem raised. There is a wealth of documentation available on-line at zope.org. There are tutorials, full length documentation, how-tos, and the archive of the list-serves. the quality ranges from very thorough to fairly rudimentary, so, caveat preemptor! Docmentation written by the digicool folks is generally excellent. Zope will do anything that other web languages claim (e.g., asp and php), though with more sophistication, since it is written in a real, object oriented programming language (python). Minuses: The learning curve is STEEP!! Once you learn Zope, you can prototype and implement very complex solutions quickly, but plan on several months before you get the full power of the server under your hood. As many testimonials will attest, you can do some nice stuff in short order, but you'll be at the tip of the iceberg. There are no books on Zope yet, though there is one on the way from O'Reilly, and I think I heard there is one in the works from Wrox. There is a chapter on Zope at the end of "The Quick Python Book", but it is not very complete. As more users come on board, the publishers will quickly follow (remember, it was only about three years ago that the number of linux books would fit on a single shelf in a bookstore). You need to know Python to get the real power of the server working for you, but Python is powerful and very clean, and its datastructures are amazing. Good luck, ciao! greg. Gregory Haley DBA/Web programmer Venaca.com
I am going through a justification (risks) of the use of Zope for a corporate client. Framing things as an Open Source play relies on the health of its community for its longevity and access to expertise for support. I remember some number tossed out when the Members folder at zope.org went to Btree. What is the current # of Members? Is this an estimate of the Zope community? I think there is probably some dead wood in that # but at least its an estimate. I remember it being over 10K.
Our client thought that the recent VC money was about 1/2 what would be needed to make it fly.
Regards, Albert Boulanger aboulanger@vpatch.com
_______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
participants (10)
-
albert boulanger -
Chris McDonough -
Dennis Nichols -
ethan mindlace fremen -
ghaley＠mail.venaca.com -
J. Atwood -
jpenny＠universal-fasteners.com -
Michael Bernstein -
Paul Everitt -
Simon Coles