Is the HTML/DHTML that zope generates WAI complient? If not how mcuh work would it take to make it so? I've looked all over the web for this and there doesn't seem to be any info. BACKGROUND DO NOT NEED TO READ IF YOU DO NOT WANT The company I'm working for have a contract with a government agency so the code has to be WAI complient the contest so far is between SharePoint, Lotus Notes and Zope. Lotus Notes is hopeless at WAI Complience and SharePoint has no info on the subject.
Lennart Regebro writes:
From: "Kieran OSullivan" <kieran.osullivan@ireland.com>
Is the HTML/DHTML that zope generates WAI complient
Zope generates any HTML you want it to, so you have no problem doing this. However, the pages generated by Zope's management interface may not (probably will) be WAI compliant.
If necessary, you must provide your own pages... Dieter
WAI? what's that? jens On Wednesday, Dec 18, 2002, at 06:41 US/Eastern, Kieran OSullivan wrote:
Is the HTML/DHTML that zope generates WAI complient? If not how mcuh work would it take to make it so? I've looked all over the web for this and there doesn't seem to be any info.
BACKGROUND DO NOT NEED TO READ IF YOU DO NOT WANT The company I'm working for have a contract with a government agency so the code has to be WAI complient the contest so far is between SharePoint, Lotus Notes and Zope. Lotus Notes is hopeless at WAI Complience and SharePoint has no info on the subject.
Jens Vagelpohl wrote:
WAI? what's that?
jens
Jens Vagelpohl wrote:
WAI? what's that?
jens
Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI) http://www.w3.org/WAI/ Tonico
On Wednesday, Dec 18, 2002, at 06:41 US/Eastern, Kieran OSullivan wrote:
Is the HTML/DHTML that zope generates WAI complient? If not how mcuh work would it take to make it so? I've looked all over the web for this and there doesn't seem to be any info.
BACKGROUND DO NOT NEED TO READ IF YOU DO NOT WANT The company I'm working for have a contract with a government agency so the code has to be WAI complient the contest so far is between SharePoint, Lotus Notes and Zope. Lotus Notes is hopeless at WAI Complience and SharePoint has no info on the subject.
_______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
-- Tonico Strasser, WebDesigner Contact me mailto:contact_tonico@yahoo.de Visit my HomePage http://Tonico.FreeZope.org
ah, thanks for the enlightenment. like someone else already mentioned, you have full power over what HTML gets spit out on the public end of your zope server. you can make it compliant with anything. jens On Wednesday, Dec 18, 2002, at 08:31 US/Eastern, Tonico Strasser wrote:
Jens Vagelpohl wrote:
WAI? what's that? jens
Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI) http://www.w3.org/WAI/
Tonico
On Wednesday, Dec 18, 2002, at 06:41 US/Eastern, Kieran OSullivan wrote:
Is the HTML/DHTML that zope generates WAI complient? If not how mcuh work would it take to make it so? I've looked all over the web for this and there doesn't seem to be any info.
BACKGROUND DO NOT NEED TO READ IF YOU DO NOT WANT The company I'm working for have a contract with a government agency so the code has to be WAI complient the contest so far is between SharePoint, Lotus Notes and Zope. Lotus Notes is hopeless at WAI Complience and SharePoint has no info on the subject.
_______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
-- Tonico Strasser, WebDesigner
Contact me mailto:contact_tonico@yahoo.de
Visit my HomePage http://Tonico.FreeZope.org
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Some people call it "508 Accessibility" for short, based on Section 508 of the United States Rehabilitation Act of 1973. Because this is where it all started. Here's some links: http://tap.orst.edu/508brief.htm http://www.section508.gov/ http://www.jimthatcher.com/webcourse1.htm http://www.webaim.org/standards/508/checklist U.S. government and educational institutions have started cracking the whip recently to comply with these 508 accessibility standards on the web. As with other posters, I agree Zope has no problems here. The resulting HTML (whether it adheres to 508 rules or not) is completely up to the individual coder, and not so much with Zope. It would be interesting however, to see a breakdown of how well the current list of 669 Zope products complies with Section 508 Web Accessibility standards. Anybody have such a list? Bryan
-----Original Message----- From: zope-admin@zope.org [mailto:zope-admin@zope.org]On Behalf Of Tonico Strasser Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 5:32 AM To: Jens Vagelpohl Cc: Kieran OSullivan; zope@zope.org Subject: Re: [Zope] WAI Complient Code
Jens Vagelpohl wrote:
WAI? what's that?
jens
Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI) http://www.w3.org/WAI/
Tonico
On Wednesday, Dec 18, 2002, at 06:41 US/Eastern, Kieran OSullivan wrote:
Is the HTML/DHTML that zope generates WAI complient? If not how mcuh work would it take to make it so? I've looked all over the web for this and there doesn't seem to be any info.
BACKGROUND DO NOT NEED TO READ IF YOU DO NOT WANT The company I'm working for have a contract with a government agency so the code has to be WAI complient the contest so far is between SharePoint, Lotus Notes and Zope. Lotus Notes is hopeless at WAI Complience and SharePoint has no info on the subject.
_______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
-- Tonico Strasser, WebDesigner
Contact me mailto:contact_tonico@yahoo.de
Visit my HomePage http://Tonico.FreeZope.org
_______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
It would be interesting however, to see a breakdown of how well the current list of 669 Zope products complies with Section 508 Web Accessibility standards. Anybody have such a list?
That would be a lot of work to do and I doubt there is such a list. However I could give you an educated the guess that it would be pretty close to zero percent ;) Actually you'll probably find a good percentage don't output HTML that is meant to be displayed to the end user anyway... -- Andy McKay
I have used a free service that checks documents like HTML and XHTML for conformance to W3C Recommendations and other standards http://validator.w3.org/detailed.html to check http://www.zope.org/Register/register.html "W3C writing" File: register[1].html Doctype: Encoding: I was not able to extract a character encoding labeling from any of the valid sources for such information. Without encoding information it is impossible to validate the document. The sources I tried are: a.. The HTTP Content-Type field. b.. The XML Declaration. c.. The HTML "META" element. And I even tried to autodetect it using the algorithm defined in Appendix F of the XML 1.0 Recommendation. Since none of these sources yielded any usable information, I will not be able to validate this document. Sorry. Please make sure you specify the character encoding in use.
I correct this line <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html4.01/loose.dtd"> instead of <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/loose.dtd"> notice the change 4.0 to 4.01 because it is not html 4.0 if you don't share this idea forgive me but note that is surely not html 40 and I add <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1" /> and checked again the file
Errors: 20 * Line 189, column 69: cannot generate system identifier for general entity "origin_url" This page is not Valid {HTML 4.01} Transitional! Below are the results of attempting to parse this document with an SGML parser. ... attached file www.quantax.com errors 70 http://www.nuxeo.com errors 101 http://www.zopera.org errors 126 http://www.hotmail.com errors 185 http://www.freezope.org errors 192 http://yahoo.com errors 233 http://www.zopelabs.com/ errors 326 http://www.microsoft.com errors 489 http://www.macromedia.com errors 618 http://www.postnuke.com 631 (once erroneous doctypes were corrected)
1. Line 4, column 35: character data is not allowed here <base href="http://www.zope.org/" /> ^
Zope generates XHTML by default[1], if you need to generate older formats you'll have to override all zope-generated markup, review the mailing list archive for various examples of how to do this. [1] Except where it doesn't; like the Image.tag() method which is broken. See bug #634 ... trivial to fix, but nobody has. -- Jamie Heilman http://audible.transient.net/~jamie/ "You came all this way, without saying squat, and now you're trying to tell me a '56 Chevy can beat a '47 Buick in a dead quarter mile? I liked you better when you weren't saying squat kid." -Buddy
this may be true, for example, for new page templates, but this is not true for, e.g., the dtml-tree tag or the ZMI, not to say that these can not be changed with some source hacking. Although I think it would be great to have everything Zope-related spew perfect, validating XML/XHTML all the time, its not really that important because all browsers support the old deprecated HTML stuff, probably will for a long time, including all kinds of non-standard html. Its also a little quixotic because browsers do not completely support the latest standards yet. 99% of the time, to talk about "what html Zope produces" is a fallacy, because, as others have said, Zope produces very little html that the coder can not change. I.E, the HTML that Zope produces is entirely in your hands for all intents and purposes. <--> george donnelly - http://zettai.net/ - "We Love Newbies" :) Zope Hosting - Dynamic Website Design - Search Engine Promotion Yahoo, AIM: zettainet - ICQ: 51907738 - e:george@zettai.net
From: Jamie Heilman <jamie@audible.transient.net> Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 15:22:23 -0800 To: dancam@netcourrier.com Cc: zope@zope.org Subject: Re: [Zope] conformance to W3C Recommendations and other standards
Zope generates XHTML by default[1], if you need to generate older formats you'll have to override all zope-generated markup, review the mailing list archive for various examples of how to do this.
[1] Except where it doesn't; like the Image.tag() method which is broken. See bug #634 ... trivial to fix, but nobody has.
It will not cost anything to correct the spelling mistake in the Doctype (in the meantime why not change to html.4.1) BUT if W3C cannot generate system identifier for general entity "origin_url" because of the use of & instead of & , why every browser on earth should? I am unfortunately entitled to think the opposite... as at least one, mine ( IE6 SP1 under XP) will hang on a page generated by Plone if I don't replace the faulty & The fact that I'm not alone (there are clients of Hotmail and Msn complaining to name a few) lets me "hope" it will have soon a SP2 ----- Original Message ----- From: "george donnelly" <list@zettai.net> To: "Jamie Heilman" <jamie@audible.transient.net>; <dancam@netcourrier.com> Cc: <zope@zope.org> Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 8:27 PM Subject: Re: [Zope] conformance to W3C Recommendations and other standards
this may be true, for example, for new page templates, but this is not true for, e.g., the dtml-tree tag or the ZMI, not to say that these can not be changed with some source hacking.
Although I think it would be great to have everything Zope-related spew perfect, validating XML/XHTML all the time, its not really that important because all browsers support the old deprecated HTML stuff, probably will for a long time, including all kinds of non-standard html. Its also a little quixotic because browsers do not completely support the latest standards yet.
99% of the time, to talk about "what html Zope produces" is a fallacy, because, as others have said, Zope produces very little html that the coder can not change. I.E, the HTML that Zope produces is entirely in your hands for all intents and purposes.
<--> george donnelly - http://zettai.net/ - "We Love Newbies" :) Zope Hosting - Dynamic Website Design - Search Engine Promotion Yahoo, AIM: zettainet - ICQ: 51907738 - e:george@zettai.net
From: Jamie Heilman <jamie@audible.transient.net> Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 15:22:23 -0800 To: dancam@netcourrier.com Cc: zope@zope.org Subject: Re: [Zope] conformance to W3C Recommendations and other standards
Zope generates XHTML by default[1], if you need to generate older formats you'll have to override all zope-generated markup, review the mailing list archive for various examples of how to do this.
[1] Except where it doesn't; like the Image.tag() method which is broken. See bug #634 ... trivial to fix, but nobody has.
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this may be true, for example, for new page templates, but this is not true for, e.g., the dtml-tree tag or the ZMI, not to say that these can not be changed with some source hacking.
I wasn't aware page templates generated any markup on their own. Yes, the dtml-tree tag is a mess, thankfully there are viable alternatives.
Although I think it would be great to have everything Zope-related spew perfect, validating XML/XHTML all the time, its not really that important because all browsers support the old deprecated HTML stuff, probably will for a long time, including all kinds of non-standard html. Its also a little quixotic because browsers do not completely support the latest standards yet.
Maybe valid xhtml and such isn't important to you, but it is to me.
99% of the time, to talk about "what html Zope produces" is a fallacy, because, as others have said, Zope produces very little html that the coder can not change. I.E, the HTML that Zope produces is entirely in your hands for all intents and purposes.
Both the <base> tag, and the Image.tag() method are examples of markup generated by Zope (which, yes, can be overridden, and that was the entire jist of my reply). It may be 99% of people who are accusing Zope of generating bad markup don't know what they are talking about, but that doesn't make my examples any less valid. My understanding of the markup generation policy is that any and all code which generates markup of its own should aim for standards compliance, and that which falls short should be classified as a bug and fixed. You've pointed out another piece of the framework which needs help, dtml-tree, but I don't see any bugs filed against it, perhaps you should do so. -- Jamie Heilman http://audible.transient.net/~jamie/ "You came all this way, without saying squat, and now you're trying to tell me a '56 Chevy can beat a '47 Buick in a dead quarter mile? I liked you better when you weren't saying squat kid." -Buddy
From: Jamie Heilman <jamie@audible.transient.net>
99% of the time, to talk about "what html Zope produces" is a fallacy, because, as others have said, Zope produces very little html that the coder can not change. I.E, the HTML that Zope produces is entirely in your hands for all intents and purposes.
Both the <base> tag, and the Image.tag() method are examples of markup generated by Zope (which, yes, can be overridden, and that was the entire jist of my reply). It may be 99% of people who are accusing Zope of generating bad markup don't know what they are talking about, but that doesn't make my examples any less valid. My understanding of the markup generation policy is that any and all code which generates markup of its own should aim for standards compliance, and that which falls short should be classified as a bug and fixed. You've pointed out another piece of the framework which needs help, dtml-tree, but I don't see any bugs filed against it, perhaps you should do so.
actually the base tag is xhtml-compliant: here's the one that my site spits out, and i haven't hacked anything: <base href="http://www.zettai.net/" /> I think we're on the same page here. :) <--> george donnelly - http://zettai.net/ - "We Love Newbies" :) Zope Hosting - Dynamic Website Design - Search Engine Promotion Yahoo, AIM: zettainet - ICQ: 51907738 - e:george@zettai.net
----- Original Message ----- From: "Jamie Heilman" <jamie@audible.transient.net> To: <dancam@netcourrier.com> Cc: <zope@zope.org> Sent: Saturday, December 21, 2002 12:22 AM Subject: Re: [Zope] conformance to W3C Recommendations and other standards
1. Line 4, column 35: character data is not allowed here <base href="http://www.zope.org/" /> ^
Zope generates XHTML by default[1], if you need to generate older formats you'll have to override all zope-generated markup, review the mailing list archive for various examples of how to do this.
Sorry, I was not clear again.. -because of this 40 in REC-html40/loose.dtd instead of 4.0, W3C doesn't understand the Doctype - to validate you are obliged to override the Doctype - I made the mistake do it by hand, it would have been clearer to let W3c to do it http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.zope.org&doctype=HTML+4.0 1+Transitional&charset=iso-8859-1+%28Western+Europe%29&ss=1&No200=1&verbose= 1 don't stop at the first warning .. the one which is worrying me is a.. Line 283, column 84: cannot generate system identifier for general entity "origin_url"
[1] Except where it doesn't; like the Image.tag() method which is broken. See bug #634 ... trivial to fix, but nobody has.
-- Jamie Heilman http://audible.transient.net/~jamie/ "You came all this way, without saying squat, and now you're trying to tell me a '56 Chevy can beat a '47 Buick in a dead quarter mile? I liked you better when you weren't saying squat kid." -Buddy
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a.. Line 283, column 84: cannot generate system identifier for general entity "origin_url"
Oh. Yeah sure thats because of the bare &. Should be & like you've been saying, whatever generated the URI is broken, or its just a typo. I gather from your first thread (and please, stop creating new threads by replying to already existing ones, its irritating) that you're concerned that URI attribute values generated by Plone aren't doing ampersand entity encoding correct. And this evidently affects Zope too? So my question to you is this, what Zope function is it that is automagically generating these bad URIs? Figure that out and we can fix it. -- Jamie Heilman http://audible.transient.net/~jamie/ "It's almost impossible to overestimate the unimportance of most things." -John Logue
----- Original Message ----- From: "Jamie Heilman" <jamie@audible.transient.net> To: "danielle.d-avout" <danielle.d-avout@wanadoo.fr> Cc: <zope@zope.org> Sent: Saturday, December 21, 2002 2:36 AM Subject: Re: [Zope] conformance to W3C Recommendations and other standards
a.. Line 283, column 84: cannot generate system identifier for general entity "origin_url"
Oh. Yeah sure thats because of the bare &. Should be & like you've been saying, whatever generated the URI is broken, or its just a typo. I gather from your first thread (and please, stop creating new threads by replying to already existing ones, its irritating)
sorry, I knew I could irritate and I hate insisting but I had the feeling that I had to it to be read again
you're concerned that URI attribute values generated by Plone aren't doing ampersand entity encoding correct. And this evidently affects Zope too? So my question to you is this, what Zope function is it that is automagically generating these bad URIs? Figure that out and we can fix it.
I could n't find any origin_url in my local Zope Instance but in http://www.zope.org/feedback_site_form/view_source I could see <input type="hidden" name="origin_url" value="&dtml-origin_url;" /> It's difficult to me to investigate (I don't read fluently Python, to say the less) url = '%s?came_from=%s&retry=%s' % ( page.absolute_url(), quote(came_from), retry) in CMFCore/CookieCrumbler.py could it be an example?
-- Jamie Heilman http://audible.transient.net/~jamie/ "It's almost impossible to overestimate the unimportance of most things." -John Logue
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danielle.d-avout wrote:
sorry, I knew I could irritate and I hate insisting but I had the feeling that I had to it to be read again
No, its fine (imo) that you reposted your complaint, its that you didn't clean out the In-Reply-To or References headers when you started this discussion off the WAI Complient Code thread. That breaks threading.
I could n't find any origin_url in my local Zope Instance but in http://www.zope.org/feedback_site_form/view_source I could see <input type="hidden" name="origin_url" value="&dtml-origin_url;" />
Actually this is correct and will generate valid html. (atleast in 2.6) I located the problem, see below.
url = '%s?came_from=%s&retry=%s' % ( page.absolute_url(), quote(came_from), retry)
in CMFCore/CookieCrumbler.py could it be an example?
This in and of itself is fine... its just going to return a URI, its up to the author who uses that URI in the context of an attribute value to do the correct escaping (in DTML anyway, TAL can be a bit more intelligent). The actual problem is visible in http://www.zope.org/standard_html_footer/view_source if you look closely. The author wrote: <A HREF="&dtml-BASE1;/feedback_site_form?whats_up=<dtml-var title_or_id url_quote>&origin_url=&dtml-absolute_url;">Feedback about Zope.org</A> The bare & before origin_url is hardcoded. This isn't Zope's fault. -- Jamie Heilman http://audible.transient.net/~jamie/ "Most people wouldn't know music if it came up and bit them on the ass." -Frank Zappa
Hi Kieran, --On Mittwoch, 18. Dezember 2002 19:41 +0800 Kieran OSullivan <kieran.osullivan@ireland.com> wrote:
Is the HTML/DHTML that zope generates WAI complient? If not how mcuh work would it take to make it so? I've looked all over the web for this and there doesn't seem to be any info.
I dont know what "WAI" complience means. However, Zope delivers whatever you stuff in. For example our HTML is W3C complient. There are no remains of code in the delivered HTML, so you can generate whatever output you want. If you love ugly frontpage HTML - Zope will deliver it. If you want leading edge XHTML - Zope will deliver it. Its on your fingertips. Does this help? Regards Tino Wildenhain
participants (13)
-
Andy McKay -
Bryan Capitano -
dancam＠netcourrier.com -
danielle.d-avout -
Dieter Maurer -
george donnelly -
Jamie Heilman -
Jens Vagelpohl -
Kieran OSullivan -
Lennart Regebro -
Oliver Marx -
Tino Wildenhain -
Tonico Strasser