ok ok, I know, I don't want to start a holy war here. I've been using Zope for a while, and I love python, but I see many people moving towards java/jsp/tomcat. I've studied java, but never liked too much, and so I tried to avoid it. But with all this "momentum" behind it, I think I might give it a try. Of course, being this a zope list, I know i'll get more positive opinions about the zope platform, but I'd like to hear from people who have tried both zope and tomcat: * what are the strenghts and weakness of both platforms? * is it possible to have something like the Zope Management Interface for Tomcat? * is tomcat web development object oriented as the zope one (I just love having objects that talk to each other and produce the pages. Makes design much easier and powerful) well, thanks in advance to the great zope community! Joe
I've done a bit of Java web development in the past: Tomcat serves up JSPs and servlets, that's all. You can't really compare that to zope. With tomcat, you don't get an ODB, persistence, built in security, TTW management interface, (good) separation of presentation and business logic, etc... For a more meaningful comparison, you could compare zope to J2EE, which provides for concepts of object-relational mapping, persistence, etc. The open source J2EE server is jboss. As an enterprise platform, J2EE is better than zope, perhaps: they have thought long and hard about scaleability, replication, remote invocation, 'web services', etc. As a rapid development platform, though, it sucks (again IMO). Java is so verbose, deploying an application takes ages, and you still don't get some of the powerful zope features like the security model out of the box. There is a lot more documentation about J2EE, JSP, etc, of course. So, I think the only reasons to use a J2EE solution are (a) if you're doing a big enterprise-scale project with specific requirements, (b) if you want a buzzword on your CV, or (c) you will be handing on development to other parties (zope being fairly unknown still) seb On Thu, 2002-01-17 at 11:55, fsd fds wrote:
ok ok, I know, I don't want to start a holy war here.
I've been using Zope for a while, and I love python, but I see many people moving towards java/jsp/tomcat. I've studied java, but never liked too much, and so I tried to avoid it. But with all this "momentum" behind it, I think I might give it a try.
Of course, being this a zope list, I know i'll get more positive opinions about the zope platform, but I'd like to hear from people who have tried both zope and tomcat:
* what are the strenghts and weakness of both platforms?
* is it possible to have something like the Zope Management Interface for Tomcat?
* is tomcat web development object oriented as the zope one (I just love having objects that talk to each other and produce the pages. Makes design much easier and powerful)
well, thanks in advance to the great zope community!
Joe
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--- seb bacon <seb@jamkit.com> wrote: >
For a more meaningful comparison, you could compare zope to J2EE, which provides for concepts of object-relational mapping, persistence, etc. The open source J2EE server is jboss.
You're right. I'm checking out www.jboss.org They have claims like "JBOSS #1 AMONG OPEN SOURCE APPLICATION SERVERS" "4000 DOWNLOADS PER DAY, JBOSS SETS NEW RECORD" (anyone knows about zope download statistics? is ZC reading this?) seems pretty nice. Damn, now I have to spend the whole day installing stuff and reading docs ;-) Anyone here used this "jboss"? Thoughts to share? Joe
fsd fds wrote:
--- seb bacon <seb@jamkit.com> wrote: >
For a more meaningful comparison, you could compare zope to J2EE, which provides for concepts of object-relational mapping, persistence, etc. The open source J2EE server is jboss.
You're right.
I'm checking out www.jboss.org They have claims like "JBOSS #1 AMONG OPEN SOURCE APPLICATION SERVERS"
"4000 DOWNLOADS PER DAY, JBOSS SETS NEW RECORD" (anyone knows about zope download statistics? is ZC reading this?)
seems pretty nice. Damn, now I have to spend the whole day installing stuff and reading docs ;-)
You can look at the statistics of zope.org at http://ns1.zope.org:82/ There you'll find some data for instance under "top urls by kbytes": 8912 /Products/Zope/2.4.3/Zope-2.4.3-win32-x86.exe 3228 /Products/Zope/2.4.3/Zope-2.4.3-linux2-x86.tgz 976 /Products/Zope/2.4.1/Zope-2.4.1-linux2-x86.tgz 983 /Products/Zope/2.5.0b3/Zope-2.5.0b3-win32-x86.exe 795 /Products/Zope/2.4.1/Zope-2.4.1-win32-x86.exe 753 /Products/Zope/2.5.0b4/Zope-2.5.0b4-win32-x86.exe 1213 /Products/Zope/2.4.3/Zope-2.4.3-src.tgz 543 /Products/Zope/2.5.0b3/Zope-2.5.0b3-linux2-x86.tgz makes 17403 downloads in 16 days =~ 1100 downloads per day for a time which includes a quite inactive period (beginning of the year). And there are more versions of zope downloadable than this statistic tells us. Nonetheless, I heard that jboss is quite a competitive product in the J2EE scene, regardless of it's price. cheers, oliver
I attempted to port my team's WebLogic 5.1 application to JBoss and found that when the proverbial rubber met the road, JBoss was an interesting academic exercise, but certainly not ready for prime time. After three months of patching the source and trying to force it to work, we gave up. Avoiding the BEA development license fees just weren't worth the pain. And if that wasn't enough reason to shun it, take a look at some of the communications from Fleury (dev lead for JBoss). Reading the mailing list for JBoss is like watching Days of our Lives, but without the acting talent or plot. If someone challenges him seriously, he generally flames them and then removes them from the list. That entire community represents (IMO) the dark side of cowboy open source development. Always remember and never take for granted that we (Zope/Python) have a wonderful, open and friendly open source community. Other open source communities are not nearly as approachable. Keyton --- Oliver Bleutgen <myzope@gmx.net> wrote:
fsd fds wrote:
--- seb bacon <seb@jamkit.com> wrote: >
For a more meaningful comparison, you could compare zope to J2EE, which provides for concepts of object-relational mapping, persistence, etc. The open source J2EE server is jboss.
You're right.
I'm checking out www.jboss.org They have claims like "JBOSS #1 AMONG OPEN SOURCE APPLICATION SERVERS"
"4000 DOWNLOADS PER DAY, JBOSS SETS NEW RECORD" (anyone knows about zope download statistics? is ZC reading this?)
seems pretty nice. Damn, now I have to spend the whole day installing stuff and reading docs ;-)
You can look at the statistics of zope.org at http://ns1.zope.org:82/
There you'll find some data for instance under "top urls by kbytes":
8912 /Products/Zope/2.4.3/Zope-2.4.3-win32-x86.exe 3228 /Products/Zope/2.4.3/Zope-2.4.3-linux2-x86.tgz 976 /Products/Zope/2.4.1/Zope-2.4.1-linux2-x86.tgz 983 /Products/Zope/2.5.0b3/Zope-2.5.0b3-win32-x86.exe 795 /Products/Zope/2.4.1/Zope-2.4.1-win32-x86.exe 753 /Products/Zope/2.5.0b4/Zope-2.5.0b4-win32-x86.exe 1213 /Products/Zope/2.4.3/Zope-2.4.3-src.tgz 543 /Products/Zope/2.5.0b3/Zope-2.5.0b3-linux2-x86.tgz
makes 17403 downloads in 16 days =~ 1100 downloads per day for a time which includes a quite inactive period (beginning of the year). And there are more versions of zope downloadable than this statistic tells us.
Nonetheless, I heard that jboss is quite a competitive product in the J2EE scene, regardless of it's price.
cheers, oliver
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Joe, I was involved in Zope work but then moved to a part of the company where for business reasons we are having to go with J2EE and Oracle. We're still getting to grips with J2EE so this is my initial impression. Firstly: - every line I write in Java makes me miss Python more. Java is a lot of hard work. Yes, because its so strict you produce correct code, but the learning curve is steep, compiler unforgiving (oh for an interpreter), and I can't help feeling the language should deal with the details, not me. - J2EE is *huge*. We have one book on the subject which is 1,600 pages. When I got into Zope I thought the Zope learning curve was steep - hah!
* what are the strenghts and weakness of both platforms?
From a commercial point of view, if you are selling a product (like we are) for use in Intranets, in our market the words "Java" and "Oracle" open chequebooks. "Zope" and "Python" don't. Java looks good on a CV at the moment.
Java has lots of libraries. Then again, you can call Java libraries from Python, and the Python libraries are pretty good too. Python has an interpreter which makes it very easy to test stuff out. Python has a much shallower learning curve than Java. Java is a much lower level language than Python. Python's much quicker to learn, and importantly for me, I can come back to code 4 months later and understand it. It doesn't feel to me as if the Java community is as helpful/supportive as the Zope/Python one. Sure, there are lots of people involved, but its much more commercial so there's less sense of community.
* is it possible to have something like the Zope Management Interface for Tomcat?
Don't think so. In J2EE land its pretty much assumed you have file access to the server, and that's where you do interesting stuff. There is some kind of console but I have yet to get it working.
* is tomcat web development object oriented as the zope one (I just love having objects that talk to each other and produce the pages. Makes design much easier and powerful)
Ish. Objects at a lower level. You have to do a lot of plumbing yourself I think - but I don't know enough abuut it myself (yet). If Zope does what you want to do, and you can use it in your environment, then I would definately use Zope. Hope that helps, Simon --------- My opinions are my own, NIP's opinions are theirs ---------- Simon J. Coles Email: simon@nipltd.com New Information Paradigms Work Phone: +44 1344 753703 http://www.nipltd.com/ Work Fax: +44 1344 753742 =============== Life is too precious to take seriously ===============
Simon Coles writes:
Joe,
I was involved in Zope work but then moved to a part of the company where for business reasons we are having to go with J2EE and Oracle. We're still getting to grips with J2EE so this is my initial impression.
Firstly: - every line I write in Java makes me miss Python more. Java is a lot of hard work. Yes, because its so strict you produce correct code, but the learning curve is steep, compiler unforgiving (oh for an interpreter), and I can't help feeling the language should deal with the details, not me. - J2EE is *huge*. We have one book on the subject which is 1,600 pages. When I got into Zope I thought the Zope learning curve was steep - hah!
Have you thought about usimg Jython to write J2EE apps. has anyone here tried this? Daniel
Daniel Mahler wrote:
Have you thought about usimg Jython to write J2EE apps. has anyone here tried this?
I don't like the idea of Jython. I DO like the idea of JPE: http://sourceforge.net/projects/jpe Basically, it runs up two virtual machines and lets them talk to each other. So, you can use python classes as if they were java classes and java classes as if they were python classes. So, why fight? Use whichever primary solution makes most sense and then use the best bits of the other language as desired :-) I used it so that I could use the Lucene indexing engine in Zope and was pleasantly suprised at how easy it was to get going :-) cheers, Chris
Simon Coles wrote:
Python has an interpreter which makes it very easy to test stuff out. Python has a much shallower learning curve than Java.
Well, okay, since things are going well today, here's a Java interpretter for ya ;-) batch file: SET classpath=E:\LocalCVS\jpe\;. python -i jinit.py jinit.py: import java if not java.isInitialized(): java.initialize() from java import Jstring, importClass sample session: E:\>python -i jinit.py jvm lib <C:\jdk1.3.1_02\jre\bin\classic\jvm.dll>
out = importClass('java.lang.System').out out.println(Jstring('test')) test
*grinz* Chris
ooooo, you're just showing off now ;) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Withers" <chrisw@nipltd.com> To: "Simon Coles" <simon@nipltd.com> Cc: "fsd fds" <mestesso101@yahoo.com>; <zope@zope.org>; <ruperte@nipltd.com> Sent: Friday, January 18, 2002 12:23 PM Subject: [Zope] [OT] Java Interpretter
Simon Coles wrote:
Python has an interpreter which makes it very easy to test stuff out. Python has a much shallower learning curve than Java.
Well, okay, since things are going well today, here's a Java interpretter for ya ;-)
batch file: SET classpath=E:\LocalCVS\jpe\;. python -i jinit.py
jinit.py: import java if not java.isInitialized(): java.initialize() from java import Jstring, importClass
sample session: E:\>python -i jinit.py jvm lib <C:\jdk1.3.1_02\jre\bin\classic\jvm.dll>
out = importClass('java.lang.System').out out.println(Jstring('test')) test
*grinz*
Chris
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Well, I wrote a review comparing Zope and Cocoon2. Cocoon2 is a servlet that runs on top of tomcat and publishes XML documents using XSLT transformer pipelines --not exactly what you asked.... but it might still be somewhat useful? http://arielpartners/content/public/topics/technology/technologyReviews/zope... BTW, if you are "stuck" doing Java and really miss your interpreter, try beanshell http://arielpartners/content/public/topics/technology/technologyReviews/bean... or, of course, Jython: http://www.jython.org HTH, --Craeg fsd fds wrote:
ok ok, I know, I don't want to start a holy war here.
I've been using Zope for a while, and I love python, but I see many people moving towards java/jsp/tomcat. I've studied java, but never liked too much, and so I tried to avoid it. But with all this "momentum" behind it, I think I might give it a try.
Of course, being this a zope list, I know i'll get more positive opinions about the zope platform, but I'd like to hear from people who have tried both zope and tomcat:
* what are the strenghts and weakness of both platforms?
* is it possible to have something like the Zope Management Interface for Tomcat?
* is tomcat web development object oriented as the zope one (I just love having objects that talk to each other and produce the pages. Makes design much easier and powerful)
well, thanks in advance to the great zope community!
Joe
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-- Craeg K Strong, General Partner Ariel Partners LLC voice 781-647-2425 fax 781-647-9690
participants (9)
-
A. Keyton Weissinger -
Chris Withers -
Craeg K. Strong -
Daniel Mahler -
fsd fds -
Oliver Bleutgen -
Phil Harris -
seb bacon -
Simon Coles