I've done a bit of Java web development in the past: Tomcat serves up JSPs and servlets, that's all. You can't really compare that to zope. With tomcat, you don't get an ODB, persistence, built in security, TTW management interface, (good) separation of presentation and business logic, etc... For a more meaningful comparison, you could compare zope to J2EE, which provides for concepts of object-relational mapping, persistence, etc. The open source J2EE server is jboss. As an enterprise platform, J2EE is better than zope, perhaps: they have thought long and hard about scaleability, replication, remote invocation, 'web services', etc. As a rapid development platform, though, it sucks (again IMO). Java is so verbose, deploying an application takes ages, and you still don't get some of the powerful zope features like the security model out of the box. There is a lot more documentation about J2EE, JSP, etc, of course. So, I think the only reasons to use a J2EE solution are (a) if you're doing a big enterprise-scale project with specific requirements, (b) if you want a buzzword on your CV, or (c) you will be handing on development to other parties (zope being fairly unknown still) seb On Thu, 2002-01-17 at 11:55, fsd fds wrote:

ok ok, I know, I don't want to start a holy war here.

I've been using Zope for a while, and I love python, but I see many people moving towards java/jsp/tomcat. I've studied java, but never liked too much, and so I tried to avoid it. But with all this "momentum" behind it, I think I might give it a try.

Of course, being this a zope list, I know i'll get more positive opinions about the zope platform, but I'd like to hear from people who have tried both zope and tomcat:

* what are the strenghts and weakness of both platforms?

* is it possible to have something like the Zope Management Interface for Tomcat?

* is tomcat web development object oriented as the zope one (I just love having objects that talk to each other and produce the pages. Makes design much easier and powerful)

well, thanks in advance to the great zope community!

Joe

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Joe, I was involved in Zope work but then moved to a part of the company where for business reasons we are having to go with J2EE and Oracle. We're still getting to grips with J2EE so this is my initial impression. Firstly: - every line I write in Java makes me miss Python more. Java is a lot of hard work. Yes, because its so strict you produce correct code, but the learning curve is steep, compiler unforgiving (oh for an interpreter), and I can't help feeling the language should deal with the details, not me. - J2EE is *huge*. We have one book on the subject which is 1,600 pages. When I got into Zope I thought the Zope learning curve was steep - hah!

* what are the strenghts and weakness of both platforms?

From a commercial point of view, if you are selling a product (like we are) for use in Intranets, in our market the words "Java" and "Oracle" open chequebooks. "Zope" and "Python" don't. Java looks good on a CV at the moment.

Java has lots of libraries. Then again, you can call Java libraries from Python, and the Python libraries are pretty good too. Python has an interpreter which makes it very easy to test stuff out. Python has a much shallower learning curve than Java. Java is a much lower level language than Python. Python's much quicker to learn, and importantly for me, I can come back to code 4 months later and understand it. It doesn't feel to me as if the Java community is as helpful/supportive as the Zope/Python one. Sure, there are lots of people involved, but its much more commercial so there's less sense of community.

* is it possible to have something like the Zope Management Interface for Tomcat?

Don't think so. In J2EE land its pretty much assumed you have file access to the server, and that's where you do interesting stuff. There is some kind of console but I have yet to get it working.

* is tomcat web development object oriented as the zope one (I just love having objects that talk to each other and produce the pages. Makes design much easier and powerful)

Ish. Objects at a lower level. You have to do a lot of plumbing yourself I think - but I don't know enough abuut it myself (yet). If Zope does what you want to do, and you can use it in your environment, then I would definately use Zope. Hope that helps, Simon --------- My opinions are my own, NIP's opinions are theirs ---------- Simon J. Coles Email: simon@nipltd.com New Information Paradigms Work Phone: +44 1344 753703 http://www.nipltd.com/ Work Fax: +44 1344 753742 =============== Life is too precious to take seriously ===============