Howdy folks. AndyM is running a poll over at ZopeZen: http://www.zopezen.org/ (Look at the bottom of the left margin) < spoiler warning> Before reading the rest of this message, please vote. I don't want to bias your response. And don't peek at the results before you vote! </spoiler warning> OK, on to the discussion. Are those numbers *really* accurate? I gotta admit, though I've had a soft spot in my heart for the Zope Studio thing, I'm stunned that it would be in front. Much less so *far* in front. Are these results an accurate reading of the sentiments -- that given the list of choices Andy presented, a Zope Studio is so much more popular than those choices!?! Wow. Let's try a different tack. Pretend there was a for-free Zope Studio and a for-fee Zope Studio. Let's say the difference was either like ActiveState's difference (personal use vs. professional use), or say the difference was in "Professional" capabilities. Does anyone think there would be any moderate-sized market for a for-fee version? How many of you would pay a few hundred bucks for a high-quality dev/authoring/admin environment for Zope? --Paul
Paul Everitt wrote:
Does anyone think there would be any moderate-sized market for a for-fee version? How many of you would pay a few hundred bucks for a high-quality dev/authoring/admin environment for Zope?
I would if it was open source and didn't require Mozilla. How about if it worked over a ZEO connection instead of through HTTP or XML-RPC? *cough* Did someome say Lotus Notes ;-) cheers, Chris
Hello Paul,
Does anyone think there would be any moderate-sized market for a for-fee version? How many of you would pay a few hundred bucks for a high-quality dev/authoring/admin environment for Zope?
I think so. While I don't usually like anything from Microsoft, I was very impressed by their upcoming .NET Visual Studio. The IDE is beautiful and is a programmer's delight. I would pay for one. However, if it cost several hundred US I probably wouldn't buy one for personal use. But, at work, where I can now use Zope as part of my job, I could get away with ordering a copy. I would love to hear what Randall Kern has to say on the subject. He's the primary developer at Spoke.net, answers questions here, and, more importantly, in a previous life, he was a developer on the Microsoft Visual Studio team. Luke
On 21/5/01 12:22 pm, "Paul Everitt" <paul@digicool.com> wrote:
Howdy folks. AndyM is running a poll over at ZopeZen:
http://www.zopezen.org/ (Look at the bottom of the left margin)
[snip]
OK, on to the discussion. Are those numbers *really* accurate? I gotta admit, though I've had a soft spot in my heart for the Zope Studio thing, I'm stunned that it would be in front. Much less so *far* in front. Are these results an accurate reading of the sentiments -- that given the list of choices Andy presented, a Zope Studio is so much more popular than those choices!?!
Well, if you look at the other choices; More kick ass RDMS adapters - more or less covered Storage abstraction layer - deep voodoo, not many folks will understand this one An IDE (Zope Studio) - Easier installation of Zope and products - happens quite rarely Conversion of more data types - seems like another db issue Nothing, its perfect - :) Not that I'm slagging Andy off - it's a *good* thing to solicit feedback, just that out of those choices, most people are going to go for the 'eye-candy' option.
Wow. Let's try a different tack. Pretend there was a for-free Zope Studio and a for-fee Zope Studio. Let's say the difference was either like ActiveState's difference (personal use vs. professional use), or say the difference was in "Professional" capabilities.
Does anyone think there would be any moderate-sized market for a for-fee version? How many of you would pay a few hundred bucks for a high-quality dev/authoring/admin environment for Zope?
--Paul
One thing for me - it *must* be cross-platform. One reason I'm so into Zope is the non-M$oft flavour of it all, I can use it from my Mac runnning MacOS X (and *run* Zope on it), on PCs in our department, or most other things we come across as long as they run a browser. I won't use a PC to edit my Zope pages. There's no downloads for a MacOS version of Python from the ActiveState pages so this proposal doesn't thrill me that much. I'd prefer to see the web interface cleaned up and XML integration boosted. I *would* pay money for a high-quality environment, with the caveats above. My 2p Tone. -- Dr Tony McDonald, Assistant Director, FMCC, http://www.fmcc.org.uk/ The Medical School, Newcastle University Tel: +44 191 243 6140 A Zope list for UK HE/FE http://www.fmcc.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/zope
Hello, Tony McDonald said: <quote> One thing for me - it *must* be cross-platform. One reason I'm so into Zope is the non-M$oft flavour of it all, I can use it from my Mac runnning MacOS X (and *run* Zope on it), on PCs in our department, or most other things we come across as long as they run a browser. </quote> I'll have to second that. At home I use MacOS X. If I can't run that then I run Linux. At work I run Windows - we're a windows programming shop so I don't have much choice - but W2K and XP are pretty good OSs. :) Maybe a joint project with PythonWare, using Tkinter? Luke
luke tymowski wrote:
I'll have to second that. At home I use MacOS X. If I can't run that then I run Linux. At work I run Windows - we're a windows programming shop so I don't have much choice - but W2K and XP are pretty good OSs. :)
Maybe a joint project with PythonWare, using Tkinter?
Andy D here at NIP is working on the very beginnings of just such a thing ;-) Anyone interested in helping? Should we get a project on SourceForge for this? What should we call it? cheers, Chris
Um, not a very helpful comment, but: it all depends on what the IDE does. Really, I'm happy using emacs for my development, but I still voted on for an IDE in the zopezen poll and on the spa^D^D^Dsurvey discussed late last week ;-) That's because I'm fed up of a few small things: - the old grep / cvs / cli dev tool problem - the hassle of making new products (it's not that hard, but nonetheless it'd be nice to have some stub-generating wizard thingums) - debugging. perhaps I'm going about it wrong, but I find debugging very frustrating, because each time I want to trace something, I have to start the server inside emacs, add a import pdb;pdb.set_trace(), find my bug, and then kill everything, remove the import statement and start again. (is that how others do it? perhaps I should start a new thread...) of course, these requirements could be met by a few changes to the Zope core and some cheap and cheerful scripts. so I don't really know if I want an IDE or not. I just want it to be easier to develop Zope products, and a really nice IDE should no exactly that. if it did, I'd pay, but I've not got much money ;) * Chris Withers <chrisw@nipltd.com> [010521 13:24]:
Maybe a joint project with PythonWare, using Tkinter?
Andy D here at NIP is working on the very beginnings of just such a thing ;-)
did you see shane's wxpython ZOBD browser? http://lists.zope.org/pipermail/zope-dev/2001-April/010880.html cheers, seb.
I would third that - for me MacOS X is turning out to be the dream mix of a mainstream end-user OS (the Mac) and a decent Unix. One one machine I can have decent editor, mail reader etc., as well as all the server stuff from my Linux machine. Lovely. Simon --On Monday, May 21, 2001 8:06 am -0400 luke tymowski <luke@seeto.com> wrote:
I'll have to second that. At home I use MacOS X. If I can't run that then I run Linux. At work I run Windows - we're a windows programming shop so I don't have much choice - but W2K and XP are pretty good OSs. :)
--------- My opinions are my own, NIP's opinions are theirs ---------- Simon J. Coles Email: simon@nipltd.com New Information Paradigms Work Phone: +44 1344 753703 http://www.nipltd.com/ Work Fax: +44 1344 772510 =============== Life is too precious to take seriously ===============
--On Monday, May 21, 2001 12:58:49 PM +0100 Tony McDonald <tony.mcdonald@ncl.ac.uk> wrote:
Well, if you look at the other choices;
More kick ass RDMS adapters - more or less covered Storage abstraction layer - deep voodoo, not many folks will understand this one An IDE (Zope Studio) - Easier installation of Zope and products - happens quite rarely Conversion of more data types - seems like another db issue Nothing, its perfect - :)
Not that I'm slagging Andy off - it's a *good* thing to solicit feedback, just that out of those choices, most people are going to go for the 'eye-candy' option.
I agree. An IDE, especially with integrated multithread debugging, would be a good thing and worth paying for. It's my first choice OF THE OPTIONS GIVEN. It's not close to my first choice overall. For one example: "Better Zope monitoring support" would be much more important to us than any of the listed options. I'll be that everyone fighting with hanging Zopes would agree with us.
Wow. Let's try a different tack. Pretend there was a for-free Zope Studio and a for-fee Zope Studio. Let's say the difference was either like ActiveState's difference (personal use vs. professional use), or say the difference was in "Professional" capabilities.
Does anyone think there would be any moderate-sized market for a for-fee version? How many of you would pay a few hundred bucks for a high-quality dev/authoring/admin environment for Zope?
We would buy several copies if it ran well on Linux, especially if it had decent debugging support in a live multithreaded environment. For the record, I did buy three copies of the Wing IDE, but haven't looked again at Komodo (the Zope stuff didn't work on Linux at the Python conference and it didn't seem very fast).
One thing for me - it *must* be cross-platform. One reason I'm so into Zope is the non-M$oft flavour of it all, I can use it from my Mac runnning MacOS X (and *run* Zope on it), on PCs in our department, or most other things we come across as long as they run a browser.
Agreed. I will use a PC, but not Windows anything. However, our editors and content people run Windows and would be uninterested in a Linux only solution. Dan Pierson Control.com, Inc.
A for charge option sounds good, with caveats. It most definitely shouldn't be based on Mozilla, it's too slow and heavy (sorry ActiveState). It should be cross-platform. This is starting to sound like a job for Python isn't it. Also the price shouldn't be exhorbitantly high. Phil ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Everitt" <paul@digicool.com> To: <zope@zope.org> Sent: Monday, May 21, 2001 12:22 PM Subject: [Zope] Q: Verifying the poll numbers
Howdy folks. AndyM is running a poll over at ZopeZen:
http://www.zopezen.org/ (Look at the bottom of the left margin)
< spoiler warning>
Before reading the rest of this message, please vote. I don't want to bias your response. And don't peek at the results before you vote!
</spoiler warning>
OK, on to the discussion. Are those numbers *really* accurate? I gotta admit, though I've had a soft spot in my heart for the Zope Studio thing, I'm stunned that it would be in front. Much less so *far* in front. Are these results an accurate reading of the sentiments -- that given the list of choices Andy presented, a Zope Studio is so much more popular than those choices!?!
Wow. Let's try a different tack. Pretend there was a for-free Zope Studio and a for-fee Zope Studio. Let's say the difference was either like ActiveState's difference (personal use vs. professional use), or say the difference was in "Professional" capabilities.
Does anyone think there would be any moderate-sized market for a for-fee version? How many of you would pay a few hundred bucks for a high-quality dev/authoring/admin environment for Zope?
--Paul
_______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
On Mon, 21 May 2001, Paul Everitt wrote:
Wow. Let's try a different tack. Pretend there was a for-free Zope Studio and a for-fee Zope Studio. Let's say the difference was either like ActiveState's difference (personal use vs. professional use), or say the difference was in "Professional" capabilities.
If it's closed source, but entirely customizeable in Python and with a "pay once, updates are free for buyers" strategy then I'll probably buy it up to 500 US$ if its reasonably bug-free, more if it's really good ;-) The problem would be that where I work (I think it's a problem in the french administration) it's very difficult (quasi-impossible) to buy something through the Net, so you would have to have a local vendor. bye, Jerome Alet - alet@unice.fr - http://cortex.unice.fr/~jerome Fac de Medecine de Nice http://wwwmed.unice.fr Tel: (+33) 4 93 37 76 30 Fax: (+33) 4 93 53 15 15 28 Avenue de Valombrose - 06107 NICE Cedex 2 - FRANCE
People with ZopeZen, what is "Storage abstraction layer"? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Everitt" <paul@digicool.com> To: <zope@zope.org> Sent: Monday, May 21, 2001 1:22 PM Subject: [Zope] Q: Verifying the poll numbers
Howdy folks. AndyM is running a poll over at ZopeZen:
http://www.zopezen.org/ (Look at the bottom of the left margin)
< spoiler warning>
Before reading the rest of this message, please vote. I don't want to bias your response. And don't peek at the results before you vote!
</spoiler warning>
OK, on to the discussion. Are those numbers *really* accurate? I gotta admit, though I've had a soft spot in my heart for the Zope Studio thing, I'm stunned that it would be in front. Much less so *far* in front. Are these results an accurate reading of the sentiments -- that given the list of choices Andy presented, a Zope Studio is so much more popular than those choices!?!
Wow. Let's try a different tack. Pretend there was a for-free Zope Studio and a for-fee Zope Studio. Let's say the difference was either like ActiveState's difference (personal use vs. professional use), or say the difference was in "Professional" capabilities.
Does anyone think there would be any moderate-sized market for a for-fee version? How many of you would pay a few hundred bucks for a high-quality dev/authoring/admin environment for Zope?
--Paul
_______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Paul Everitt wrote: [snip]
Wow. Let's try a different tack. Pretend there was a for-free Zope Studio and a for-fee Zope Studio. Let's say the difference was either like ActiveState's difference (personal use vs. professional use),
This sounds *bad* for the open source effect to me; the chances are you'd put development effort in the Zope Studio IDE at the cost of development effort of the current web based IDE. This is bad in itself, as you'd be locking up the open source app with a proprietary interface. Related to that, I don't believe you could make a good Zope Studio IDE user interface for each third party product in some automatic fashion; the user interface would have to be developed seperately for the IDE. Would I develop an IDE user interface for a product (besides the web interface) if I had to pay to use this IDE professionally? I don't think so. So what would happen with many third party products is one of the following: * no support from this IDE * support from the IDE but has to be added by digicool (and kept in sync with developments, etc) Very bad for open source development; people will likely stop using third party products as they don't work with the IDE, and some people will stop developing them because nobody uses them anyway.
or say the difference was in "Professional" capabilities.
This would be somewhat better but still suffers from similar problems. It depends on what these 'professional capabilities' would be. Stuff that isn't in the through the web GUI?
Does anyone think there would be any moderate-sized market for a for-fee version?
Hard to say. I guess many Zope developers would jump at some kind of IDE environment, though I'm not sure the actual added value of such an IDE is that high compared to the current web GUI. The current web environment has some advantages you'd actually lose. The coolness factor of an IDE definitely exists, though.
How many of you would pay a few hundred bucks for a high-quality dev/authoring/admin environment for Zope?
If it's open source, and runs on Linux, I'd contribute some development time instead. There are in fact several such efforts underway right now. Some of these projects were or will be abortive, but eventually the open source ball would start rolling -- as soon as someone comes up with something that's useful to enough people and takes on the leadership role to push further development. Anyway, my main message is that such a move wouldn't be without its cost to the community. Regards, Martijn
[Zope IDE or not] Another comment: A project much more interesting than a Zope IDE to me was discussed at the Python conference: mirroring Zope objects onto the filesystem (and a good API for developers to add such support to their own products). This would enable things like grep, cvs, your favorite editor, etc, and probably also a mass of desires people would like an IDE for would be taken care of. It could also form the basis of IDE projects later on. Regards, Martijn
Wow, I came back from a holiday to find such a reaction to my poll. A few things: - I wouldn't take the poll in the slighest bit seriously in any way. As my last poll showed where someone came and voted 360 times. In fact just today someone from 212.8.219.171 at 8:00 (while I was cooking breakfast over a campfire) voted for the storage layer 120 times. Hmm. (And I checked all the answers by the way). - Tony McDonald: You are completely right. I could have swung the results a totally different way, by adding in "Better Documentation" and everyone would have voted for that. I didnt because I knew everyone would and it wouldnt show anything (except I think the documentation is getting better every day). Most of the time I try and keep my polls amusing, light hearted and put about 2 minutes thought into them. Perhaps I need more :) - This was sparked off in my mind by the survey which didnt mention any IDE at all. In fact the first few things there just databases, which I summarised as kick-ass database support. In fact it is similar to that survey. - The only thing I have felt missing from the discussion here is the exact same people the survey is meant to target, people who dont use or have given up on Zope. Most people on this list have very high technical skills and have found a way to edit Zope, be it XEmacs, FTP or some other way. People are great at adapting to a problem and finding solutions (I know many people who think its fine to just cut and paste into the text area, they like it, and do it with remarkable speed). Newbies, occasional users and those who have given up will be more likely the ones to complain. So there you go, the goal was to spark off discussion on one thing I felt was missing in that survey, the IDE. It did so I will be quiet and let you continue discussing it. Thanks for visiting my site. -- Andy McKay
Actually one thing I should have added and just remembered is "Better Ecommerce and SSL support". Bet that would have gotten a few votes too. Since two polls in a row have been attacked by script kiddies they will be offline until membership is up and running. Sorry folks.
participants (12)
-
Andy -
Chris Withers -
Dan L. Pierson -
Jerome Alet -
luke tymowski -
Martijn Faassen -
Paul Everitt -
Peter Bengtsson -
Phil Harris -
seb bacon -
Simon Coles -
Tony McDonald