I'm creatin a customised login page template using districtname, user name and password. i got halt in d logic for password checking. after submitting d login form how do i call d same page if the passwd is wrong along with d req params passed? do i need an ext python script for this redirection. also tell how to set session data in ZPTs from the form fields? -- Share the vision of difference with ME
prabuddha ray wrote:
I'm creatin a customised login page template using districtname, user name and password. i got halt in d logic for password checking. after submitting d login form how do i call d same page if the passwd is wrong along with d req params passed? do i need an ext python script for this redirection. also tell how to set session data in ZPTs from the form fields?
I'd suggest you look at using CookieCrumbler and SimpleUserFolder instead of trying to roll your own. Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk
prabuddha ray wrote at 2005-3-29 01:57 -0800:
I'm creatin a customised login page template using districtname, user name and password. i got halt in d logic for password checking. after submitting d login form how do i call d same page if the passwd is wrong along with d req params passed? do i need an ext python script for this redirection.
No, you can do it where you checked the password.
also tell how to set session data in ZPTs from the form fields?
<tal:XXXX define="dummy python:request.SESSION.set(mySessionVar, request.someRequestVar)" /> -- Dieter
thnx dieter n chris, i cudnt make my point clear. 1st a recap : i've a zpt login page wherein i have got the district name n coressponding users drop down list built. now after selecting d district n username d passwd is to b filled. then d form is to b submitted. It has to be done thid way only so i cant hav cookie crumblers n simpleuserfolder componenets. now my problem how n where do i check d pwd n redirect to the next zpt or the previous one if its wrong. i've a zsql method giving me the pwd for the user param passed. i wanted to kno if i can call this method on d onsubmit event? kindly gimme solns u've in mind. On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 20:01:24 +0200, Dieter Maurer <dieter@handshake.de> wrote:
prabuddha ray wrote at 2005-3-29 01:57 -0800:
I'm creatin a customised login page template using districtname, user name and password. i got halt in d logic for password checking. after submitting d login form how do i call d same page if the passwd is wrong along with d req params passed? do i need an ext python script for this redirection.
No, you can do it where you checked the password.
also tell how to set session data in ZPTs from the form fields?
<tal:XXXX define="dummy python:request.SESSION.set(mySessionVar, request.someRequestVar)" />
-- Dieter
-- Share the vision of difference with ME
prabuddha ray wrote:
now my problem how n where do i check d pwd n redirect to the next zpt or the previous one if its wrong. i've a zsql method giving me the pwd for the user param passed. i wanted to kno if i can call this method on d onsubmit event? kindly gimme solns u've in mind.
Use SimpleUserFolder and CookieCrumbler, and cut out the cute abbreviations like "n" and "d" while you're at it. Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk
Use SimpleUserFolder and CookieCrumbler, and cut out the cute abbreviations like "n" and "d" while you're at it.
I second that! I have started hitting the delete button rather than engage in the mental translation. Cliff Chris Withers wrote:
prabuddha ray wrote:
now my problem how n where do i check d pwd n redirect to the next zpt or the previous one if its wrong. i've a zsql method giving me the pwd for the user param passed. i wanted to kno if i can call this method on d onsubmit event? kindly gimme solns u've in mind.
Use SimpleUserFolder and CookieCrumbler, and cut out the cute abbreviations like "n" and "d" while you're at it.
Chris
Cliff Ford wrote:
Use SimpleUserFolder and CookieCrumbler, and cut out the cute abbreviations like "n" and "d" while you're at it.
I second that! I have started hitting the delete button rather than engage in the mental translation.
I gave up and added ray to my spam can procmail rule. Oh well, no more for me ot read I guess ;-) Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk
prabuddha ray wrote at 2005-3-30 23:50 -0800:
... now my problem how n where do i check d pwd n redirect to the next zpt or the previous one if its wrong.
Apparently, you need some background reading... Especially, you need to understand that HTTP is a stateless protocol and *EACH* request must somehow perform its own authentication. That's why usually login information is (somehow) coded in a cookie. You really should follow the advice to look at an existing UserFolder (they are responsible for authentication). You may need to adapt/extend an existing UserFolder. -- Dieter
Its been very kind of u all to be critical about a newbie like me. I'll definitely lookout for those ettiquetes. My python script error got solved as i missed the silly ' ' in the response.redirect statemnet. I set the user and pwd request vars in sesson var. Tried cookie crumbler and MysqlUserFolder and UserFolder also but they all need to changed much and my requirements are diffrent. I'm building a trial govt. site for stores management which was built previously in ASP. The login page takes the districtname , username and passwd . according to the type of user different menus are displayed. For this i need to have the districtname , username and passwd carried on throughout the session. my current requirement is to pass the session vars through the python script which is the action of the login form. I've gone through the zopebook but dint find much help there. can u plz tell me where do i get to know about pythopn scripting done in zope n ZPT examples. i'm really sorry for my erronous language. please dont overlook theese humble requests. On Fri, 1 Apr 2005 23:07:38 +0200, Dieter Maurer <dieter@handshake.de> wrote:
prabuddha ray wrote at 2005-3-30 23:50 -0800:
... now my problem how n where do i check d pwd n redirect to the next zpt or the previous one if its wrong.
Apparently, you need some background reading...
Especially, you need to understand that HTTP is a stateless protocol and *EACH* request must somehow perform its own authentication. That's why usually login information is (somehow) coded in a cookie.
You really should follow the advice to look at an existing UserFolder (they are responsible for authentication). You may need to adapt/extend an existing UserFolder.
-- Dieter
-- Share the vision of difference with ME
Customisation of the login sequence is quite difficult for Newbies because there are lots of different ways to approach the problem - you have already tried some. I suspect that trying to match what was done in PHP may be part of your problem. It would be helpful to know if your lists of users are coming from one source, like a database table, or multiple sources, like multiple tables or different databases, and whether users are unique in each district. From there you decide your zope folder structure. It could be like this: site_home |__acl_users |__district1 |__district2 or like this: site_home |__district1 | |__acl_users |__district2 | |__acl_users In the second case you would not have to worry about asking the user for the district name. In the first case you would get a district name or a user defined role for that district from a supplementary data source, like a database. A combination of exUserFolder and MySQL would do. You can get information on the logged in user (Username and Roles) from the User object, so you don't need to expicitly use sessions at this stage. You should certainly not store passwords - that would be a serious breach of confidentiality. Maybe you should say what you do with the District parameter after the user has logged in. Giving advice or examples on ZPT and Python for an approach that is probably wrong is just too time-consuming. Cliff prabuddha ray wrote:
Its been very kind of u all to be critical about a newbie like me. I'll definitely lookout for those ettiquetes.
My python script error got solved as i missed the silly ' ' in the response.redirect statemnet. I set the user and pwd request vars in sesson var.
Tried cookie crumbler and MysqlUserFolder and UserFolder also but they all need to changed much and my requirements are diffrent.
I'm building a trial govt. site for stores management which was built previously in ASP. The login page takes the districtname , username and passwd . according to the type of user different menus are displayed.
For this i need to have the districtname , username and passwd carried on throughout the session.
my current requirement is to pass the session vars through the python script which is the action of the login form.
I've gone through the zopebook but dint find much help there.
can u plz tell me where do i get to know about pythopn scripting done in zope n ZPT examples.
i'm really sorry for my erronous language. please dont overlook theese humble requests.
On Fri, 1 Apr 2005 23:07:38 +0200, Dieter Maurer <dieter@handshake.de> wrote:
prabuddha ray wrote at 2005-3-30 23:50 -0800:
... now my problem how n where do i check d pwd n redirect to the next zpt or the previous one if its wrong.
Apparently, you need some background reading...
Especially, you need to understand that HTTP is a stateless protocol and *EACH* request must somehow perform its own authentication. That's why usually login information is (somehow) coded in a cookie.
You really should follow the advice to look at an existing UserFolder (they are responsible for authentication). You may need to adapt/extend an existing UserFolder.
-- Dieter
I have been trying to think of ways of providing specific pointers, So, assuming you have a custom login page and a custom python script that processes that page: In the Python script you could set a cookie for the District: context.REQUEST.RESPONSE.setCookie('District', district) where district is the name of the District field in the form. The District parameter is then always available to your page templates and scripts in the REQUEST object. At the end of your login script you would typically redirect to some specific page like this: return context.REQUEST.RESPONSE.redirect('aURL') in exUserFolder you don't have to do anything else - the login works by magic, which is very confusing. Now for the problems: If the login is wrong the system will call /standard_error_message, so you have to customise that to send the user back to the login form with a Login failed message. If the user bookmarks a protected page and tries to jump to it without being logged in, the system will call the login sequence starting in acl_users, so you have to customise that to call your own login page. After the user has logged in, whenever you need to get the Username you would typically use a python script like this: from AccessControl import getSecurityManager return getSecurityManager().getUser().getUserName() HTH Cliff prabuddha ray wrote:
Its been very kind of u all to be critical about a newbie like me. I'll definitely lookout for those ettiquetes.
My python script error got solved as i missed the silly ' ' in the response.redirect statemnet. I set the user and pwd request vars in sesson var.
Tried cookie crumbler and MysqlUserFolder and UserFolder also but they all need to changed much and my requirements are diffrent.
I'm building a trial govt. site for stores management which was built previously in ASP. The login page takes the districtname , username and passwd . according to the type of user different menus are displayed.
For this i need to have the districtname , username and passwd carried on throughout the session.
my current requirement is to pass the session vars through the python script which is the action of the login form.
I've gone through the zopebook but dint find much help there.
can u plz tell me where do i get to know about pythopn scripting done in zope n ZPT examples.
i'm really sorry for my erronous language. please dont overlook theese humble requests.
On Fri, 1 Apr 2005 23:07:38 +0200, Dieter Maurer <dieter@handshake.de> wrote:
prabuddha ray wrote at 2005-3-30 23:50 -0800:
... now my problem how n where do i check d pwd n redirect to the next zpt or the previous one if its wrong.
Apparently, you need some background reading...
Especially, you need to understand that HTTP is a stateless protocol and *EACH* request must somehow perform its own authentication. That's why usually login information is (somehow) coded in a cookie.
You really should follow the advice to look at an existing UserFolder (they are responsible for authentication). You may need to adapt/extend an existing UserFolder.
-- Dieter
Hi list, never before i got such a holistic advice. thanks so much Cliff. About the 1st mail, On Sat, 02 Apr 2005 17:03:56 +0100, Cliff Ford <Cliff.Ford@ed.ac.uk> wrote:
Customisation of the login sequence is quite difficult for Newbies because there are lots of different ways to approach the problem - you have already tried some. I suspect that trying to match what was done in PHP may be part of your problem. It would be helpful to know if your lists of users are coming from one source, like a database table, or multiple sources, like multiple tables or different databases, and whether users are unique in each district
I dint want to built customized login page in 1st place. Actually this is a Govt. stores management site used in my state only bulit all in ASP. I 've to convert this into a Zope and Plone version. So i wanted to get it converted with minimun changes. But now as you say i think I should go the way Zope does it . only that i'm finding it hard to customize it in Zope. 1> the district name and their users come from 2 seperate Mysql tables. the users are unique in each district.
From there you decide your zope folder structure. It could be like this:
site_home |__acl_users |__district1 |__district2
or like this:
site_home |__district1 | |__acl_users |__district2 | |__acl_users
In the second case you would not have to worry about asking the user for the district name. In the first case you would get a district name or a user defined role for that district from a supplementary data source, like a database.
So i think 2nd structure is abetter fit. Now the qusetion is how do build this district user folder structure using the database? Hope not manually, because there are 22 districts and about 15 users in each of them pluys head quarters.
A combination of exUserFolder and MySQL would do.
i don know about them, something like mysqluserfolder or simpleuserfolder components ?
You can get information on the logged in user (Username and Roles) from the User object, so you don't need to expicitly use sessions at this stage. You should certainly not store passwords - that would be a serious breach of confidentiality. Maybe you should say what you do with the District parameter after the user has logged in.
I dont need the password but do need the username and district for following pages to decide the access rights and the stores available inthe districts , also for some report labels.
Giving advice or examples on ZPT and Python for an approach that is probably wrong is just too time-consuming.
Cliff
i dint get to know much about coding ZPT's and Script(Python) for them, from the ZPT refs and Zopebook. So wanted some simple working examples. About 2nd mail, On Sun, 03 Apr 2005 09:39:01 +0100, Cliff Ford <Cliff.Ford@ed.ac.uk> wrote:
I have been trying to think of ways of providing specific pointers, So, assuming you have a custom login page and a custom python script that processes that page:
In the Python script you could set a cookie for the District:
context.REQUEST.RESPONSE.setCookie('District', district)
where district is the name of the District field in the form. The District parameter is then always available to your page templates and scripts in the REQUEST object.
At the end of your login script you would typically redirect to some specific page like this:
return context.REQUEST.RESPONSE.redirect('aURL')
in exUserFolder you don't have to do anything else - the login works by magic, which is very confusing.
Are these above said things not possible in exUserFolder. how do i customize it for my problem?
Now for the problems:
If the login is wrong the system will call /standard_error_message, so you have to customise that to send the user back to the login form with a Login failed message.
If the user bookmarks a protected page and tries to jump to it without being logged in, the system will call the login sequence starting in acl_users, so you have to customise that to call your own login page.
After the user has logged in, whenever you need to get the Username you would typically use a python script like this:
from AccessControl import getSecurityManager return getSecurityManager().getUser().getUserName()
HTH
Cliff
So this is what can be done if I use exUserFolder ? Hope a reply soon. -- Share the vision of difference with ME
I am abstracting bits of your email below in case anyone else wants to join in.
I dint want to built customized login page in 1st place. Actually this is a Govt. stores management site used in my state only bulit all in ASP. I 've to convert this into a Zope and Plone version. So i wanted to get it converted with minimun changes.
If you are going to use Plone I can't offer advice - I have looked at Plone on three separate occasions, and recently read The Definitive Guide to Plone, and have stil decided not to use it. I only say this to make it clear that many applications are built without CMS and Plone.
1> the district name and their users come from 2 seperate Mysql tables. the users are unique in each district.
Two separate tables with User information is awkward! The user folders I know of expect user information to come from one source. So you either have to create two folders, each with its own acl_users (provided by one of the User Folder Products), or you have to hack the User Folder product to put in a Union select statement in place of a simple Select.
Now the qusetion is how do build this district user folder structure using the database? Hope not manually, because there are 22 districts and about 15 users in each of them pluys head quarters.
You have not said whether the people in the different districts do completely different things with different forms, or identical things but specifying the district. If the former then it is no big deal to create the folders manually, although it can be done programmtically. You could set a Local Role equal to the district name and get that role for users from the database. That way, users can only enter their own district folder. If the latter, then you could retrieve the Username and District from the User object for use in the forms (include the District as a role).
i dint get to know much about coding ZPT's and Script(Python) for them, from the ZPT refs and Zopebook. So wanted some simple working examples.
Try working on the rest of your application to build up ZPT and Python experience. As I said, managing users is tricky. Also, be aware that Zope experts advise developers to produce file system based Products. There are lots of simple Products that you can use and browse the code to see how they work. Cliff _________________________________________________________________________ prabuddha ray wrote:
Hi list, never before i got such a holistic advice. thanks so much Cliff.
About the 1st mail,
On Sat, 02 Apr 2005 17:03:56 +0100, Cliff Ford <Cliff.Ford@ed.ac.uk> wrote:
Customisation of the login sequence is quite difficult for Newbies because there are lots of different ways to approach the problem - you have already tried some. I suspect that trying to match what was done in PHP may be part of your problem. It would be helpful to know if your lists of users are coming from one source, like a database table, or multiple sources, like multiple tables or different databases, and whether users are unique in each district
I dint want to built customized login page in 1st place. Actually this is a Govt. stores management site used in my state only bulit all in ASP. I 've to convert this into a Zope and Plone version. So i wanted to get it converted with minimun changes. But now as you say i think I should go the way Zope does it . only that i'm finding it hard to customize it in Zope.
1> the district name and their users come from 2 seperate Mysql tables. the users are unique in each district.
From there you decide your zope folder structure. It could be like this:
site_home |__acl_users |__district1 |__district2
or like this:
site_home |__district1 | |__acl_users |__district2 | |__acl_users
In the second case you would not have to worry about asking the user for the district name. In the first case you would get a district name or a user defined role for that district from a supplementary data source, like a database.
So i think 2nd structure is abetter fit. Now the qusetion is how do build this district user folder structure using the database? Hope not manually, because there are 22 districts and about 15 users in each of them pluys head quarters.
A combination of exUserFolder and MySQL would do.
i don know about them, something like mysqluserfolder or simpleuserfolder components ?
You can get information on the logged in user (Username and Roles) from the User object, so you don't need to expicitly use sessions at this stage. You should certainly not store passwords - that would be a serious breach of confidentiality. Maybe you should say what you do with the District parameter after the user has logged in.
I dont need the password but do need the username and district for following pages to decide the access rights and the stores available inthe districts , also for some report labels.
Giving advice or examples on ZPT and Python for an approach that is probably wrong is just too time-consuming.
Cliff
i dint get to know much about coding ZPT's and Script(Python) for them, from the ZPT refs and Zopebook. So wanted some simple working examples.
About 2nd mail,
On Sun, 03 Apr 2005 09:39:01 +0100, Cliff Ford <Cliff.Ford@ed.ac.uk> wrote:
I have been trying to think of ways of providing specific pointers, So, assuming you have a custom login page and a custom python script that processes that page:
In the Python script you could set a cookie for the District:
context.REQUEST.RESPONSE.setCookie('District', district)
where district is the name of the District field in the form. The District parameter is then always available to your page templates and scripts in the REQUEST object.
At the end of your login script you would typically redirect to some specific page like this:
return context.REQUEST.RESPONSE.redirect('aURL')
in exUserFolder you don't have to do anything else - the login works by magic, which is very confusing.
Are these above said things not possible in exUserFolder. how do i customize it for my problem?
Now for the problems:
If the login is wrong the system will call /standard_error_message, so you have to customise that to send the user back to the login form with a Login failed message.
If the user bookmarks a protected page and tries to jump to it without being logged in, the system will call the login sequence starting in acl_users, so you have to customise that to call your own login page.
After the user has logged in, whenever you need to get the Username you would typically use a python script like this:
from AccessControl import getSecurityManager return getSecurityManager().getUser().getUserName()
HTH
Cliff
So this is what can be done if I use exUserFolder ? Hope a reply soon.
Hi list, I've got some clarifications given below. On Mon, 04 Apr 2005 16:08:50 +0100, Cliff Ford <Cliff.Ford@ed.ac.uk> wrote:
I am abstracting bits of your email below in case anyone else wants to join in.
If you are going to use Plone I can't offer advice - I have looked at Plone on three separate occasions, and recently read The Definitive Guide to Plone, and have stil decided not to use it. I only say this to make it clear that many applications are built without CMS and Plone.
I had no idea about this. i knew that zope acts as a app server and plone is the front end tool. In fact I'm building the store's site as a plone site in zope. As a matter of fact i've not done much specific in plone . just built 2 tabpanes. I configured the exUserFolder using the mysql database and as expected it built up a seperate login system. so i believe it'll work on itself without plone. One problem that concerns next query is that it took only one table for user details whereas i had one more table for district.
Two separate tables with User information is awkward! The user folders I know of expect user information to come from one source. So you either have to create two folders, each with its own acl_users (provided by one of the User Folder Products), or you have to hack the User Folder product to put in a Union select statement in place of a simple Select. d quarters.
let me explain the login page flow. a dropdown list of districts is available on load. on selecting a district the page reloads and the available users are listed in 2nd dropdown list. after selecting the user the password is to be given. So that way i need both the 'district' and the 'userdetail' table. actually the district table has district code ,name and other stores related nfo. userdetail table is linked using this district code.
You have not said whether the people in the different districts do completely different things with different forms, or identical things but specifying the district. If the former then it is no big deal to create the folders manually, although it can be done programmtically. You could set a Local Role equal to the district name and get that role for users from the database. That way, users can only enter their own district folder. If the latter, then you could retrieve the Username and District from the User object for use in the forms (include the District as a role).
users are of different level like store-in-charge, sys mgmt group, vendors and normal users. they are in all the districts. so depending on the user level diffrent set of menu page are to be generated ie. users of same level in diferent districts do same thing. In earlier ASP version I handled this in the login page handler ASP page and wanted to use the same logic here. district shouldn't be the user role , 'userlevel' will act as user role here. but the folders would be districtwise, I suppose. honestly I'm little bogged out by the exuserFolder feature, its using Dtml all the way and I'm sticking to ZPTs and script pythons.
Try working on the rest of your application to build up ZPT and Python experience. As I said, managing users is tricky. Also, be aware that Zope experts advise developers to produce file system based Products. There are lots of simple Products that you can use and browse the code to see how they work.
Cliff
I completely understand this. but the problem remains the same . how do i customise these products acccording to my needs. hope this helps you in helping me. waiting for your reply. -- Share the vision of difference with ME
prabuddha ray wrote at 2005-4-4 01:41 -0700:
...
A combination of exUserFolder and MySQL would do.
i don know about them, something like mysqluserfolder or simpleuserfolder components ?
"exUserFolder" is something like the big brother of "SimpleUserFolder" -- much more complex but also much more flexible... -- Dieter
Dieter Maurer wrote:
"exUserFolder" is something like the big brother of "SimpleUserFolder" -- much more complex but also much more flexible...
I dispute that ;-) I don't know of anything you can do with XUF that can't be done with SUF... Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk
Chris Withers wrote at 2005-4-5 13:54 +0100:
Dieter Maurer wrote:
"exUserFolder" is something like the big brother of "SimpleUserFolder" -- much more complex but also much more flexible...
I dispute that ;-)
That is usual with us two ;-)
I don't know of anything you can do with XUF that can't be done with SUF...
exUserFolder has built in caching (positive and negative caches), directly integrates with the MembershipTool and support unlimited additional properties on user objects... -- Dieter
On Tue, Apr 05, 2005 at 09:32:04PM +0200, Dieter Maurer wrote:
exUserFolder has built in caching (positive and negative caches),
I guess that by "negative cache" you mean something like a cache of failed user lookups? Nice. -- Paul Winkler http://www.slinkp.com
Dieter Maurer wrote:
exUserFolder has built in caching (positive and negative caches),
Dunno what that means, but SUF supports caching via standard RAMCacheManagers or ZSQL method caching.
directly integrates with the MembershipTool
What does that entail? SUF should quite happilly replace the userfolder in a CMF site...
and support unlimited additional properties on user objects...
Well, SUF does, although I don't know if I ever released that version due to broken zope.org, it's available to whoever asks for it though... cheers, Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk
On Apr 6, 2005, at 0:52, Chris Withers wrote:
Dieter Maurer wrote:
exUserFolder has built in caching (positive and negative caches),
Dunno what that means, but SUF supports caching via standard RAMCacheManagers or ZSQL method caching.
"negative" caching means that there is a separate cache to cache failed user lookups for a while and return a failure immediately instead of re-trying the user lookup doing a (possibly expensive) user search in the underlying backend.It's a little bit like Squids negative_ttl, which is used to specify a duration for caching error responses. The negative cache allows the backend to "recover" and/or prevents backend overloading because otherwise every failing lookup would hit the backend again and again. jens
Jens Vagelpohl wrote:
"negative" caching means that there is a separate cache to cache failed user lookups for a while and return a failure immediately instead of re-trying the user lookup doing a (possibly expensive) user search in the underlying backend.It's a little bit like Squids negative_ttl, which is used to specify a duration for caching error responses. The negative cache allows the backend to "recover" and/or prevents backend overloading because otherwise every failing lookup would hit the backend again and again.
Oh right, well, again, should be fairly trivial to setup with python scripts and RAMCacheManagers. cheers, Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk
Chris Withers wrote at 2005-4-6 10:04 +0100:
... Oh right, well, again, should be fairly trivial to setup with python scripts and RAMCacheManagers.
When I called "exUserFolder" a big brother of "SimpleUserFolder" I did not want to imply that you can not add all the missing features to "SimpleUserFolder" through additional infrastructures. I is just that with "exUserFolder", there is a management page where you configure the parameters for the user cache -- that's all of it. No special Python Scripts, no association with a RAMCacheManager, no headache with invalidation (after user object changes through the API)... -- Dieter
Dieter Maurer wrote:
I is just that with "exUserFolder", there is a management page where you configure the parameters for the user cache -- that's all of it. No special Python Scripts, no association with a RAMCacheManager, no headache with invalidation (after user object changes through the API)...
Yes, and the implementation was mostly barroque rubbish last time I looked at XUF. I believe in re-using lots of simple compments to build complex applications. I hate to see loads of common concepts like caching, sessions, cookie-management and rdb interaction re-implemented in non-reusable ways so many times... cheers, Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk
Chris Withers wrote at 2005-4-7 13:29 +0100:
... I believe in re-using lots of simple compments to build complex applications. I hate to see loads of common concepts like caching, sessions, cookie-management and rdb interaction re-implemented in non-reusable ways so many times...
You are probably right -- but "SimpleUserFolder" is really "simple" (which sometimes is good). Had *you* used all these reusable components to provide the functionality in SUF, standard users could have used then out of the box -- with just sumitting a configuration page. As it is now, they have to think about (e.g.) cache management and invalidation. I would like to stress that I do not think SUF were bad. I just defend my statement that "exUserFolder" is something like a big brother to SUF. Simple is beautiful, if it meats the given requirements... -- Dieter
Dieter Maurer wrote:
You are probably right -- but "SimpleUserFolder" is really "simple" (which sometimes is good).
Simpler is ALWAYS good, as the name of my company kinda gives away ;-) Nothing should ever be less simple than is absolutely necessary!
Had *you* used all these reusable components to provide the functionality in SUF, standard users could have used then out of the box -- with just sumitting a configuration page. As it is now, they have to think about (e.g.) cache management and invalidation.
All the components I've mentioned so far have been standard Zope components. If their documentation isn't so good, that's a seperate problem. If I provide work-a-likes, then I have to be responsible for that documentation too, which isn't great ;-) That said, maybe I should provide more examples of how to get things like caching and cookie auth working with SUF?
I would like to stress that I do not think SUF were bad. I just defend my statement that "exUserFolder" is something like a big brother to SUF.
A bloated fat cousin maybe ;-) cheers, Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk
Chris Withers wrote at 2005-4-5 23:52 +0100:
Dieter Maurer wrote:
exUserFolder has built in caching (positive and negative caches),
Dunno what that means, but SUF supports caching via standard RAMCacheManagers
That sounds very strange: user objects cached in a RAMCacheManager...
or ZSQL method caching.
They cannot be controlled (therefore, I developped "CCSQLMethods"), thus, bad luck when you changed a user...
directly integrates with the MembershipTool
What does that entail? SUF should quite happilly replace the userfolder in a CMF site...
Maybe, you look at "exUserFolder" more closely. The true reason for this suggestion: I, too, do not know it. It is just a configuration option (that I did not need and therefore investigate).
and support unlimited additional properties on user objects...
Well, SUF does, although I don't know if I ever released that version due to broken zope.org, it's available to whoever asks for it though...
That's bad for SUF. This feature was essential for us. I looked at SUF and exUserFolder -- and chose "exUserFolder" as it better matched our requirements. -- Dieter
Dieter Maurer wrote:
exUserFolder has built in caching (positive and negative caches),
Dunno what that means, but SUF supports caching via standard RAMCacheManagers
That sounds very strange: user objects cached in a RAMCacheManager...
Why? How does that memory-based cache differ in concept from the one inside XUF? ;-)
or ZSQL method caching.
They cannot be controlled (therefore, I developped "CCSQLMethods"), thus, bad luck when you changed a user...
Sorry, not enough info to be a useful comment. I think this boils down to "CCSQLMethods have better caching that ZSQL Methods", in which case, great, use CCSQLMethods instead, SUF is agnostic to what type of callable object you use to implement any of the things that need implementing. This comes back to the point I made in my other mail: allow people to switch in better components as they become available, don't tie them to your own duplicate implementation ;-)
What does that entail? SUF should quite happilly replace the userfolder in a CMF site...
Maybe, you look at "exUserFolder" more closely.
I'd really rather not ;-)
The true reason for this suggestion: I, too, do not know it. It is just a configuration option (that I did not need and therefore investigate).
That sounds like most of XUF to me. With SUF you start with something simple and add what you need, with XUF, you start with something complex and get scared by the millions of config options until you finally figure out what to turn off. Heh, I guess this is also why I feel the way I do about Plone ;-)
Well, SUF does, although I don't know if I ever released that version due to broken zope.org, it's available to whoever asks for it though...
That's bad for SUF.
*shrugs* I'll get simplistix.co.uk to a point where I can release code there at some stage...
This feature was essential for us. I looked at SUF and exUserFolder -- and chose "exUserFolder" as it better matched our requirements.
I'm happy to send you the latest SUF if you're interesteed :-) cheers, Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk
Chris Withers wrote at 2005-4-7 13:33 +0100:
exUserFolder has built in caching (positive and negative caches),
Dunno what that means, but SUF supports caching via standard RAMCacheManagers
That sounds very strange: user objects cached in a RAMCacheManager...
Why? How does that memory-based cache differ in concept from the one inside XUF? ;-)
The RAMCacheManager is associated with (what I call) site building objects (those have an identifying URL, for example). "User" objects are not site building. The UserFolder is but usual implementations do not inherit "ZCachable" -- and therefore cannot (directly) use the RAMCacheManager. When an object supports transparent caching (which would be necessry for a UserFolder), then it must contain code interfacing with a cache manager. I doubt that SUF contains such code...
or ZSQL method caching. They cannot be controlled (therefore, I developped "CCSQLMethods"), ... Sorry, not enough info to be a useful comment. I think this boils down to "CCSQLMethods have better caching that ZSQL Methods", in which case, great, use CCSQLMethods instead
But hopefully you see that the questions are difficult for a standard user. When he uses SUF and determines that caching is needed because authentication and authorization are too costly, he may learn that Z SQL Methods can be cached. Later, he changes some user properties and has to observe that they take effect with a delay (as stale values are cached) and there is no reliable way to flush/invalidate the cache. He may learn that there are CCZSQLMethods the cache of which can be flushed, but he may have had long hours of problems. With "exUserFolder", he visits the configuration tab and selects "with caching for XXX minutes" -- that's it (unless he uses ZEO). Thus, if someone needs caching, then "exUserFolder" is easier then SUF.
... I'm happy to send you the latest SUF if you're interesteed :-)
The software is built. "exUserFolder" does its job. No reason to switch at this time... -- Dieter
Dieter Maurer wrote:
The RAMCacheManager is associated with (what I call) site building objects (those have an identifying URL, for example).
Why do you think that?
"User" objects are not site building.
But in zope, they should always have a url ;-)
The UserFolder is but usual implementations do not inherit "ZCachable" -- and therefore cannot (directly) use the RAMCacheManager.
SUF doesn't need to inehrit from ZCacheable...
When an object supports transparent caching (which would be necessry for a UserFolder), then it must contain code interfacing with a cache manager. I doubt that SUF contains such code...
I think transparency (ie: magic, automagical, and other such bullshit) is bad. Explicit is better that implicit and all that ;-)
But hopefully you see that the questions are difficult for a standard user.
Only if the standard user needs caching, in which case they should understand the choices they're making ;-)
When he uses SUF and determines that caching is needed because authentication and authorization are too costly, he may learn that Z SQL Methods can be cached. Later, he changes some user properties and has to observe that they take effect with a delay (as stale values are cached) and there is no reliable way to flush/invalidate the cache. He may learn that there are CCZSQLMethods the cache of which can be flushed, but he may have had long hours of problems.
That seems entirely natural to me. At any time, he can make choices depending on his current needs without being penalised for previous choices...
With "exUserFolder", he visits the configuration tab and selects "with caching for XXX minutes" -- that's it (unless he uses ZEO).
...which case he gets core confused and is locked into a caching setup which he'd have to recode at the python level to get anywhere with ;-) cheers, Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk
prabuddha ray wrote at 2005-4-2 04:38 -0800:
... I've gone through the zopebook but dint find much help there.
can u plz tell me where do i get to know about pythopn scripting done in zope n ZPT examples.
The Zope Book (2.7 edition, online) definitely gives help on python scripting -- retry please. You find ZPT examples in the "examples" folder of ".../Products/PageTemplates". Import the "zpt_examples.zexp" into Zope ("import/export"). Of course, no general ressource provides direct answers to your very specific problems... -- Dieter
participants (6)
-
Chris Withers -
Cliff Ford -
Dieter Maurer -
Jens Vagelpohl -
Paul Winkler -
prabuddha ray