On Thu, Dec 21, 2000 at 11:03:21PM +0100, Milos Prudek wrote:

Regarding the upcoming Zope Book:

There are some examples for UniqueValuesFor method and "_usage" syntax (it looks that only values "range:min", "range:max" and "range:min:max" are possible), but these are not mentioned in the DTML reference or API reference. Maybe Zope Book needs a ZCatalog reference, if there are methods like UniqueValuesFor...

I would recommend that since the current Zope Book is a giant leap forward, these and any other language tricks that are scattered in the Zope Book chapters should be briefly mentioned in the ZopeBook DTML and API references.

IMHO there are many people like me who:

- are trying to start using Zope BECAUSE OF the final availability of Zope Book - for various reasons are not very comfortable with hunting information around zope.org and in Zope sources (no permanent internet connection is a strong reason) - consequently expect to find all basic information in coherent form in Zope Book

Wonderful goals, but... the problem that I see is that Zope contains so much and can be used in so many ways that any book is simutaneously too limited and out of date. Think of the technologies that Zope already embraces, DTML, python, some XML, XML-RPC, DAV, ftp, http, HTML, SQL, LDAP, CVS, Zcatalog. I counted 14 SQL database adapters, alone, and I am sure I missed some. Add in technologies coming on line such as perl, SOAP, ZPatterns, ZEO, CORBA, COM and others. Add major application packages like Squishdot, OIO, ZopeGUM, zCommerce, etailer and others. And this misses some biggies including on the fly graph and visual generation. Assuming that each can be suitable discussed in an average of 100 pages, we have at least 22 * 100 = 2200 pages. Books this size just don't fly. (They really hurt when dropped on your foot, too).

Obviously, Zope Book can't contain everything. I like the sentence "this is an advanced topic and it's outside the scope of this book". Authors have put limits to what they want to achieve. I wish that the ZB is coherent in the "explanation - example - reference" trio.

That is a great sentence. Unfortunately, it is completely misleading in this context. The problem is not so much what is too advanced, but what is too basic or too specialized. From what I have seen on the list, most newbies know too little HTML, too little SQL, and too little python. (Newbies shouldn't be mucking with Zope internals, these are the things that are 'too advanced'). But, this comes from a particular view of the elephant, one which sees Zope as an quick web application framework. This is hardly the only view. I use Zope in a particular way, emphasizing HTML, DTML, python, SQL. It is not at all being used the way that DC intended, yet because Zope flexibly integrates a great deal of basic technology, it can be used reasonably well to do what I want it to do. This is a good measure of great technology. Don't forget that there are 252 HowTos and 83 Quick tips in addition to the Zope Book, the Guides, and API reference. All of these can be dowloaded to your computer. You do not need a full time connection. (And they are all bundled so that you do not have to download them one at a time!) Zope is never going to be easy to learn. There is just too much. Yet, Zope is not hard to begin, and the Zope Book is about making it easier to begin. As such, the encyclopedic detail that you are requesting is not only unneeded; it is harmful, it gives the impression to the reader that enormous knowledge is needed to use Zope. This is not true. Begin to use Zope. Find out what it enables you to do easily. When you hit the hard patches, look at the tips and howtos. Only then log onto the net. Search Zope.org. Use the mailing list. When you get an answer, think hard. Bit by bit, enlightenment will occur. You will never know all of Zope, but it will become easier and easier to do harder and harder things. And, the first six weeks are killers, the next six are a pleasure, and then you start to regret all that you could have done better. It is much like the rest of life! Jim Penny

-- Milos Prudek

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