I realize that this post might cause a bit of anxiety, and so I apologize for that in advance. However, despite all the blood, sweat, and tears that we've all poured into Zope over the years, Zope has yet to make a signifigant market penetration. If you could, please take a moment to surf on over to http://zopereplacement.wikidot.com/ As you probably guessed, that's a wiki set up to discuss where we went right, where we went wrong, and what we could do to make a product that industry is more apt to embrace. What do you guys honestly think? Is this a good idea? Bad? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/r-index
--On 12. November 2006 08:47:25 -0800 Hafeliel <hafeliel@yahoo.com> wrote:
I realize that this post might cause a bit of anxiety, and so I apologize for that in advance. However, despite all the blood, sweat, and tears that we've all poured into Zope over the years, Zope has yet to make a signifigant market penetration.
If you could, please take a moment to surf on over to http://zopereplacement.wikidot.com/
This wiki contains a lot of nonsense and wrong facts and it is really not worth to discuss anything about Zope changes outside the "standard" Zope community channels. Just-my-2-cents, -aj
+-------[ Hafeliel ]---------------------- | I realize that this post might cause a bit of anxiety, | and so I apologize for that in advance. However, | despite all the blood, sweat, and tears that we've all | poured into Zope over the years, Zope has yet to make | a signifigant market penetration. | | If you could, please take a moment to surf on over to | http://zopereplacement.wikidot.com/ | | As you probably guessed, that's a wiki set up to | discuss where we went right, where we went wrong, and | what we could do to make a product that industry is | more apt to embrace. | | What do you guys honestly think? Is this a good idea? I'm having a hard time working out what your problem is. "If anything, the Zope developers have given us too much. In an attempt to protect us from ourselves, they have severly limited what we can do." That's not something I've ever heard of being an issue before. The fact is you can subclass just about anything in Zope, and publish just about any other type of object. Perhaps if we knew what you were limited by, the discussion would go a lot smoother. Some of your discussions shows a distinct lack of knowledge of how Zope works, so your problem seems to be, you don't understand Zope, so you want to replace it with something that does the same thing, just in a way you understand it. Yet other parts of your discussion show a frightening lack of knowledge of web development environments in general. The fact of the matter is, PHP and friends have greater market penetration, because "people" want to do things the 'easy' way. That is mixing presentation and logic all in some horrid markup. Engineers appreciate the way it separates these things, and makes it hard(er) to have ugly templates. PHP "programmers" are a dime a dozen for a reason, "anyone" can do it. Zope is a different beast, if you don't have good engineering habits, you're not going to get very far using Zope. -- Andrew Milton akm@theinternet.com.au
--- Andrew Milton <akm@theinternet.com.au> wrote:
I'm having a hard time working out what your problem is.
"If anything, the Zope developers have given us too much. In an attempt to protect us from ourselves, they have severly limited what we can do."
That's my fault. I can see a problem and I get so focused on how to fix it, that I don't spend adequate time making sure everyone's on the same page that I am.
That's not something I've ever heard of being an issue before. The fact is you can subclass just about anything in Zope, and publish just about any other type of object.
Perhaps if we knew what you were limited by, the discussion would go a lot smoother.
Okiedoke. Let's take some typical problems that I've encountered in the last couple of years with Zope, and I'll walk you through my thought processes. Perhaps that will help you see the frustration that I think a typical programmer feels with Zope. [1] Suppose I've got a gallery of images and I want to organize these so that the user can see the most recent additions to the gallery. I can access an image pretty easily, for example: grumpy = getattr(container, "grumpy.jpg") The edit view of grumpy.jpg shows me the Last Modified time, so I know this information must be stored somewhere. I check the docs for methods I can call on class Image and its ancestors, File, ObjectManagerItem, and PropertyManager, but I still don't see anything about the Last Modified time. Now I try to investigate it by poking around in Python. I write some code to look at any properties that might have been saved for me, but not documented: return grumpy.propertyIds() ['title', 'content_type', 'height', 'width'] No good. Perhaps there is a member that I need to call, but someone overlooked it in the documentation: return dir(grumpy) Error Type: NameError Error Value: global name 'dir' is not defined Hrmmm. No good. For some reason, my basic diagnostic tool has been disabled to protect me from something. I don't suppose I could find this information myself? return repr(grumpy.__class__.__dict__) Line 2: "__dict__" is an invalid attribute name because it starts with "_". Okie... perhaps if I prod more subtly? return repr(getattr(getattr(grumpy, "__class__"), "__dict__")) Error Type: Unauthorized Error Value: You are not allowed to access '__class__' in this context [2] A user wants to buy a print of an image in the gallery. He's a new user, so I get account information and add it to my user list. Now I want to log him in from a visually appealing web form. I know this is possible, because I've seen other applications do this. However, I can't find any mention of this in the docs. [3] I'm writing a program to give web access to a program that is normally controlled with a command-line interface. To let the web user do all the things you could do from a CLI, I will want to call various programs, look at the contents of various files, etc. It's my server, and I know there will be no malicious code added, but yet, Zope stops me at every turn in an effort to protect me from myself. There are mechanisms where I can create portals to code in actual files that can access these things, but by the time I'm done, I've written so many of them, that Zope hasn't really made my life any easier at all. [4] I have some full-resolution images that I want to allow people to download if they have paid the license fees. Very few companies actually do this, so I'm content to add users manually and upload the images that they want manually. I create directories for the users and try to give only them permissions to view the files in there. To be frank, this is a "chocolate mess". How do I give them the folders? How do I give them the files? The docs are no help so I temporarily make the user an admin (the haven't been told the password yet, so I feel safe) and I take ownership for them, then I change them back to regular users. This still doesn't work. Zope is convinced that they own the files, but for some reason it still wants them to authenticate. I walk away frustrated and angry. [5] I have a neat idea for a Zope product so I start coding it up. I find some bits and pieces on the web and try installing them, only to find that parts of my product have a name collision with parts of their product. I could go on, but hopefully I am making my point clear enough now. I'm not looking for the answers to these problem. I am trying to express how a typical user feels when working with Zope. They walk away with two general notions: [1] The documentation is not complete. [2] Zope is actively trying to stop me from succeeding, or finding an alternative solution.
Some of your discussions shows a distinct lack of knowledge of how Zope works, so your problem seems to be, you don't understand Zope,
Agreed. I know that Zope can do these things, but the documentation doesn't want to give up Zope's secrets. In most cases, such a problem would be only an inconvenience. One of the reasons I love Python so is that it lets me solve my problems in different ways. Sadly, Zope is dead set against this.
so you want to replace it with something that does the same thing, just in a way you understand it.
Basically, yes. I want a tool that doesn't try to protect me. I want the full power of Python when I make my web pages. I do not want someone trying to protect me, or that makes me jump through hoops to get there. I want Zope's few great features without all of its restrictions. Is that more clear?
Yet other parts of your discussion show a frightening lack of knowledge of web development environments in general.
Please don't be mean. I've been a programmer since 1979. I've done a lot of things in this last 27 years. If I can't make a tool dance and sing within two years of picking it up, then the chances are that the tool itself isn't measuring up. If there is something specific you want to address, please do.
The fact of the matter is, PHP and friends have greater market penetration, because "people" want to do things the 'easy' way.
Exactly. The whole point of a tool is to make it easy to get from point A to point B. PHP presumes that the code is to be trusted and doesn't stand in the way. Zope presumes that the code is suspect and is desperate to keep me from getting to point B. The end result is that I end up not using what Zope can do because I do not want to deal with the roadblocks it puts up.
That is mixing presentation and logic all in some horrid markup. Engineers appreciate the way it separates these things, and makes it hard(er) to have ugly templates. PHP "programmers" are a dime a dozen for a reason, "anyone" can do it.
No offence, but that sounds like a statement from an ivory tower. I want a good separation of code and template. However, I don't see why I should have to suffer to get this.
Zope is a different beast, if you don't have good engineering habits, you're not going to get very far using Zope.
I think you have far too much faith in Zope as it currently stands. Incomplete documentation is the norm for OSS, but in most cases, this isn't such a big deal. Most products don't try to protect you, so you can easily find out the name of a function that someone forgot to document. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com
+-------[ Hafeliel ]---------------------- | --- Andrew Milton <akm@theinternet.com.au> wrote: | | > I'm having a hard time working out what your problem | > is. | > | > "If anything, the Zope developers have given us too | > much. In an attempt to protect us from ourselves, | > they have severly limited what we can do." | Please don't be mean. I've been a programmer since | 1979. I've been cutting code since '76, what's your point? Or are you just pissing for distance? | I've done a lot of things in this last 27 | years. If I can't make a tool dance and sing within | two years of picking it up, then the chances are that | the tool itself isn't measuring up. If there is | something specific you want to address, please do. If you haven't worked out how to do any of the things you mentioned in two years, I don't think it matters what system you use. I absolutely cannot believe you haven't worked out how to log someone in from a web form in two years of using Zope (especially given there's at least one specialised product, and a whole bunch of generic ones that do this out of the box for you). This single point alone would lead me to believe you're telling some porky pies (to be "nice" about it). For someone who's been around for 27 years, I'd have expected you to have at least once looked at the code... (if only to find out how the ZMI was sorting on date), if you can't find any explicit documentation. -- Andrew Milton akm@theinternet.com.au
+-------[ Hafeliel ]---------------------- | | Exactly. The whole point of a tool is to make it easy | to get from point A to point B. PHP presumes that the | code is to be trusted and doesn't stand in the way. | Zope presumes that the code is suspect and is | desperate to keep me from getting to point B. The end | result is that I end up not using what Zope can do | because I do not want to deal with the roadblocks it | puts up. You are only 'restricted' when you enter your code through-the-web. On-Disk python code has no restrictions whatsoever. This includes both Products and External Methods. This is *well* documented. -- Andrew Milton akm@theinternet.com.au
--- Andrew Milton <akm@theinternet.com.au> wrote:
You are only 'restricted' when you enter your code through-the-web. On-Disk python code has no restrictions whatsoever. This includes both Products and External Methods.
This is *well* documented.
Thank you for your input. Does anyone else in the community have an opinion? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com
+-------[ Hafeliel ]---------------------- | --- Andrew Milton <akm@theinternet.com.au> wrote: | > You are only 'restricted' when you enter your code | > through-the-web. On-Disk python code has no | > restrictions whatsoever. This includes both Products | > and External Methods. | > | > This is *well* documented. | | Thank you for your input. Does anyone else in the | community have an opinion? Sorry, I'm the designated troll hitter for today. -- Andrew Milton akm@theinternet.com.au
Hafeliel schrieb:
--- Andrew Milton <akm@theinternet.com.au> wrote:
You are only 'restricted' when you enter your code through-the-web. On-Disk python code has no restrictions whatsoever. This includes both Products and External Methods.
This is *well* documented.
Thank you for your input. Does anyone else in the community have an opinion?
Yes (sort of...). First of all I must say I have almost no developer experience under zope 2 (only did one or 2 products for Plone) and no experience at all under zope 3. I followed this thread so far with interest though lot of stuff are too complicated for me. Anyway one thing in particular drew my attention on http://zopereplacement.wikidot.com/zopesfeatures is about naming system and namespace collision which I found worth mentioning because I encountered some problems while naming objects inside the instance of a folderish product. Another thing which has not been mentioned (or may be it has and I overlooked it) is about (implicit?) acquisition which sometimes instead of leading to a 404-error produces some strange contents. Example: you have 2 plone-sites (site1 and site2) on your root. Calling the url http://yourserver/site1/site2 provides you with a content mixing of the 2 sites. I understand acquisition is a great feature of zope and I don't mean to question this. So far the 2 cent opinion of a zope user... Thanks to the the person who initiated this thread for raising (at least for me) some interesting points and hopefully helping developers extending this great application. Raphael
____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
-- ___________________________________ Dr. Raphael Pesché Rechenzentrum Universitaet Freiburg Hermann-Herder-Strasse 10 79104 Freiburg im Breisgau, Germany Tel.: +49 (0)761 203 4621
On Nov 12, 2006, at 12:56 PM, Hafeliel wrote:
--- Andrew Milton <akm@theinternet.com.au> wrote:
grumpy = getattr(container, "grumpy.jpg")
The edit view of grumpy.jpg shows me the Last Modified time
I bet you are getting the last modified date from the image. The image has attributes inside of it. Are you saying that you can not track down where the python code is getting the attribute from the image?
Now I try to investigate it by poking around in Python. I write some code to look at any properties that might have been saved for me, but not documented:
I don't understand... When I track stuff down, I look at the code. Thats part of the beauty of open source. You have the source right there to look at. Also... I don't watch this email with an eagle eye, but why haven't you just asked? These guys are terrific at answering questions and pointers. Watch: What module should I look at to help track down where the attributes of an image are coming from?
2] A user wants to buy a print of an image in the gallery. He's a new user, so I get account information and add it to my user list. Now I want to log him in from a visually appealing web form. I know this is possible, because I've seen other applications do this.
However, I can't find any mention of this in the docs.
I slightly agree here but only slightly. Weitershausen's book gives a complete A-Z example of a web site including the login page, user management, etc. And Weitershausen frequents this list.
so you want to replace it with something that does the same thing, just in a way you understand it.
Basically, yes. I want a tool that doesn't try to protect me.
I think, actually, you do. The world of hackers causes web development to require a lot of security. Zope's, the tiny bit I've used, seems very flexible.
Please don't be mean. I've been a programmer since 1979. I've done a lot of things in this last 27 years. If I can't make a tool dance and sing within two years of picking it up, then the chances are that the tool itself isn't measuring up.
I use the exact same logic. "I've a smart guy; I've been swinging in the wind forever; If I can't make it work, its the tools fault." But, that logic is simply wrong. In my case, I have not done web development "forever". If I had, I would not have as many problems with Zope as I do and I would understand how, what, when, where much better. I get really frustrated... But I take a step back. In my case, I am frustrated not with Zope but with my expectations of what I should be able to do.
The fact of the matter is, PHP and friends have greater market penetration, because "people" want to do things the 'easy' way.
Exactly. The whole point of a tool is to make it easy to get from point A to point B. PHP presumes that the code is to be trusted and doesn't stand in the way. Zope presumes that the code is suspect and is desperate to keep me from getting to point B. The end result is that I end up not using what Zope can do because I do not want to deal with the roadblocks it puts up.
That is mixing presentation and logic all in some horrid markup. Engineers appreciate the way it separates these things, and makes it hard(er) to have ugly templates. PHP "programmers" are a dime a dozen for a reason, "anyone" can do it.
No offence, but that sounds like a statement from an ivory tower. I want a good separation of code and template. However, I don't see why I should have to suffer to get this.
Zope is a different beast, if you don't have good engineering habits, you're not going to get very far using Zope.
I think you have far too much faith in Zope as it currently stands. Incomplete documentation is the norm for OSS, but in most cases, this isn't such a big deal. Most products don't try to protect you, so you can easily find out the name of a function that someone forgot to document.
I would not do a major project with PHP. Zope, Vignette, what is IBM's tool called? WorldSomethingOrOther --- they exist for a reason. Why use C++? Why use Python? Why not just stick with BASIC? Everyone can write BASIC code, remember? The same reasoning applies here. BASIC utterly breaks down as projects grow. Also, I would argue that PHP is where its at today due to age and the time of introduction. Just like Windows or QuickBooks. If they were introduced today, they would utterly fail. But their miserable performance is tolerated today because they are intrenched. (That is not to say that I think PHP is bad -- only that the time something is introduced plays a huge role in how fast it spreads.) Also -- take a look at Zope 3. I've used it more than Zope 2 which seem to be what you have tried. I find it really great. Good luck and take care, Perry Smith Ease Software, Inc. pedz@easesoftware.com http://www.easesoftware.com Low cost SATA Products for IBMs p5, pSeries, and RS/6000 AIX systems
On Sun, Nov 12, 2006 at 05:54:35PM -0600, Perry Smith wrote:
Also... I don't watch this email with an eagle eye, but why haven't you just asked? These guys are terrific at answering questions and pointers. Watch:
What module should I look at to help track down where the attributes of an image are coming from?
this is inherited from the Persistent class in ZODB. You're looking for bobobase_modification_time, for hysterical raisins. Note however that it's updated on *any* transaction commit that touches the object in question, which often isn't granular enough for apps that care about things like mod time. If you want something else, CMF has examples of doing the DublinCore date stuff. IIRC Philip's book has examples of doing dublin core in the zope 3 style. Happy to prove this particular point ;-) -- Paul Winkler http://www.slinkp.com
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 13 Nov 2006, at 00:54, Perry Smith wrote:
On Nov 12, 2006, at 12:56 PM, Hafeliel wrote:
--- Andrew Milton <akm@theinternet.com.au> wrote:
grumpy = getattr(container, "grumpy.jpg")
The edit view of grumpy.jpg shows me the Last Modified time
I bet you are getting the last modified date from the image. The image has attributes inside of it.
There is no code inside Zope that would look at file or image data to read modification date from it. The method is bobobase_modification_time for simple Zope Images, and one look at the sources for that edit form would have revealed that. jens -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (Darwin) iD8DBQFFWCmcRAx5nvEhZLIRAlAaAJ9FNVqabQntuTM/JSlJuQGzv+wISgCeP5sr H2Lj4fReR6Bh2SmhkMXAFug= =AU7S -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
I walk away frustrated and angry.
Not a good thing.
[5] I have a neat idea for a Zope product so I start coding it up. I find some bits and pieces on the web and try installing them, only to find that parts of my product have a name collision with parts of their product.
Products aren't libs. They're quite high-level and end-user specific. Take it or leave it or write your own and steal ideas from an existing one. Perhaps you should look at them as one big Cookbook of examples?
[1] The documentation is not complete.
Yes and no. Probably complete but scattered all over the web and txt files. We should have something like http://www.postgresql.org/docs/ or http://dev.mysql.com/doc/
Basically, yes. I want a tool that doesn't try to protect me. I want the full power of Python when I make my web pages. I do not want someone trying to protect me, or that makes me jump through hoops to get there. I want Zope's few great features without all of its restrictions.
Is that more clear?
Crystal clear. I hate that too. However, some restrictions can actually be good until you become a super expert because otherwise you'll write insecure or un-inheritable. I love that Python has a one-way-to-do-it approach with it's syntax but still it doesn't stop you from writing non-Guido like code like this: def foo ( self, a = "b"): return a (1%2+3)
Yet other parts of your discussion show a frightening lack of knowledge of web development environments in general.
Please don't be mean. I've been a programmer since 1979. I've done a lot of things in this last 27 years. If I can't make a tool dance and sing within two years of picking it up, then the chances are that the tool itself isn't measuring up. If there is something specific you want to address, please do.
I think you're right. It shouldn't be hard. Usability matters. For geeky tools too. -- Peter Bengtsson, work www.fry-it.com home www.peterbe.com hobby www.issuetrackerproduct.com
Peter Bengtsson escribió:
I walk away frustrated and angry.
Not a good thing.
[5] I have a neat idea for a Zope product so I start coding it up. I find some bits and pieces on the web and try installing them, only to find that parts of my product have a name collision with parts of their product.
Products aren't libs. They're quite high-level and end-user specific. Take it or leave it or write your own and steal ideas from an existing one. Perhaps you should look at them as one big Cookbook of examples?
[1] The documentation is not complete.
Yes and no. Probably complete but scattered all over the web and txt files. We should have something like http://www.postgresql.org/docs/ or http://dev.mysql.com/doc/
Basically, yes. I want a tool that doesn't try to protect me. I want the full power of Python when I make my web pages. I do not want someone trying to protect me, or that makes me jump through hoops to get there. I want Zope's few great features without all of its restrictions.
Is that more clear?
Crystal clear. I hate that too. However, some restrictions can actually be good until you become a super expert because otherwise you'll write insecure or un-inheritable. I love that Python has a one-way-to-do-it approach with it's syntax but still it doesn't stop you from writing non-Guido like code like this: def foo ( self, a = "b"): return a (1%2+3)
Yet other parts of your discussion show a frightening lack of knowledge of web development environments in general.
Please don't be mean. I've been a programmer since 1979. I've done a lot of things in this last 27 years. If I can't make a tool dance and sing within two years of picking it up, then the chances are that the tool itself isn't measuring up. If there is something specific you want to address, please do.
I think you're right. It shouldn't be hard. Usability matters. For geeky tools too.
Well, as the weired man at zope list I think Zope will be better, as every project in the world Zope has its advantages and its disavantages, as every project in the world In my opinion the main Zope disavantages is its own architecture ;-) Programmers use to thing in Model View Controller, Singletons, Adapters and so on but Zope is (always my opinion) a object tank were they (objects) can live and this part was the most dificult to understand to me (some years ago) I use (as all of you know :-) ) Zope in not a regular way but it works! Some parts are not finished as I would like but some others are totally finished as I would dream some days ago (before to know about Zope) I don't need to work with the finished parts I need to work with the unfinished. Perhaps Zope community don't understand the way you want to use Zope but you don't found any community without this kind of problems. If we work together every day in the same place problably we understand ourselves better but open source has this kinds of issues... There are a lots of think I would like to do better and easily (for example search for my last threat at the list) but Zope is Zope and the Zope community has its owns plans. Give thanks they put Zope as open source because if not you need to program a lot of parts of your every day work And the worst solution is always here: go to php or RoR or ASP.NET or what you want. Every plataform has its advantages and its disadvantages Or you can start a Zope fork but you need to understand much better what Zope is and how Zope do the work (and I don't believe that you could do it for now) -- Mis Cosas http://blogs.sistes.net/Garito
On Nov 12, 2006, at 10:47 AM, Hafeliel wrote:
I realize that this post might cause a bit of anxiety, and so I apologize for that in advance. However, despite all the blood, sweat, and tears that we've all poured into Zope over the years, Zope has yet to make a signifigant market penetration.
If you could, please take a moment to surf on over to http://zopereplacement.wikidot.com/
As you probably guessed, that's a wiki set up to discuss where we went right, where we went wrong, and what we could do to make a product that industry is more apt to embrace.
What do you guys honestly think? Is this a good idea? Bad?
I created an account but I can not add any text -- or, I suppose I should say that "I can't figure out how to add text". edit gives me "you must be a member"... I have an account and I'm logged in... So, I will add my reply here. About this note: I hesitate sending it to this mailing list. I'm sure it will cause a few bad feelings. It would me if I was on the other side. I honestly do not want to. If I do offend you, please let me know. About me: On a scale of 0 to 10 of Zope experience, I'm about a 2 -- maybe. I've done one trivial "Contact Management" Zope 3 application. I've managed to get zwiki inside Plone running on Zope 2. I've read two books on Zope 3. Thats about it. Images: if you want simple adding data to images, go to Adobe and search for their standardized method. They have a standardized method of adding attributes to any document. You can define and add your own attributes. Its based on rtf. Zope Replacement: it seems a bit premature to me to be asking for a replacement. Why not extend what is there? I've not seen it "fail" any place that required a reject of the founding principles. Apache Module: I'd question that. It is so trivial to put Zope 3 behind apache that I don't see the advantage of forcing people to use Apache. As an Apache module, I would have to compile it for my system. If I'm on a Mac, that is not easy to do. I've gone out and replaced all of my Apache stuff so its not so hard for me at this point but, generally, forcing people into compiling code AND using Apache seems really bad to me. Another reason NOT to do this is development. I can develop Zope on my laptop. If it was Apache based, I'd have to crank up an apache server. Not a huge deal but why force me to do that? Language: At this point, python seems to have advantages to php. I've used Perl since the dark ages but find Python nicer. I don't really know why though so please don't ask me to explain. ZCML: I agree with Zope 3's principles of creating ZCML. It is hard for me to use. I don't think that is a Zope issue. I wish it was easier. Documentation: I would still like to have a separate Zope 3 reference book. Something that can be printed. Something that is "complete" (contains everything in the default zope 3 download). Suggestion 1 for Zope 3: Make a more obvious, clean separation between Zope 2 and Zope 3 on the web sites. Have separate web sites for example. Personally, I would orphan Zope 2. Whatever works on Zope 3, I would keep. Whatever does not, I would "archive". Bring over things from Zope 2 to Zope 3 as time permits but make the cut and let Zope 2 drift into history. It may be that 99.999% of Zope 2 works in Zope 3. I have no idea. But my impression as a new beginner is that most (i.e. all) of it does not. Suggestion 2 for Zope 3: document document document... I understand everyone is busy and everything is changing fast. But, I find it really hard to break into the Zope 3 environment. And, it may be that this is really why Zope 3 is not picking up more users faster. I don't know. Super Cool Things about Zope 3: 1) TAL's: I did PHP without TALs last year. It quickly became obvious to me that something else was needed. My approach was the opposite: I wrote everything in PHP and had tiny PHP things to spit out the tags and attributes. Not very viable since you can not use normal HTML editors to create and design your pages. TAL's solves all those problems. Who ever came up with that idea deserves a Nobel Prize. 2) The Zope Database: The fact I can just subclass Persistence and all that magic happens for me in the background is great. And, looking and watching from the email conversations, it appears as if there is a growth path from trivial storage to full blown database backend support. 3) Python based. 4) Very modular and component design. I hope this helps more than it hurts. Perry Smith Ease Software, Inc. pedz@easesoftware.com http://www.easesoftware.com Low cost SATA Products for IBMs p5, pSeries, and RS/6000 AIX systems
Hafeliel wrote:
If you could, please take a moment to surf on over to http://zopereplacement.wikidot.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=numpty Try doing a bit more digging before wasting your time writing this rubbish. I suggest you take a good long hard look at Zope 3, read the 2 books, and then come back... Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk
+-------[ Chris Withers ]---------------------- | http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=numpty I'm so glad the word 'numpty' is making a comeback. Not so much a fan of the modernised 'numptard' variant though. -- Andrew Milton akm@theinternet.com.au
Chris Withers said the following on 11/13/2006 12:11 PM:
Hafeliel wrote:
If you could, please take a moment to surf on over to http://zopereplacement.wikidot.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=numpty
Try doing a bit more digging before wasting your time writing this rubbish.
I suggest you take a good long hard look at Zope 3, read the 2 books, and then come back...
yeah, I can see how this kind of attitude draws lots and lots of new followers to zope. Sure, the man might be mistaken and misinformed, but if it is hard to understand the tool, maybe some docs or references might be in order, thoughI fail to see anythign zope related in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll unless we mean to describe the attitude towards criticism we/some of us don't like (like to deal with?). I am sure that treating him like dirt under our shoes will help improve his perception of zope and why it is such a wonderfull tool. I am not sure, however, that the zope community needs this kind of ad hominem argumentation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem) towards any and all that raise any kind of issue with zope. Whatever. /dario -- -- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Dario Lopez-Kästen, IT Systems & Services Chalmers University of Tech. Lyrics applied to programming & application design: "emancipate yourself from mental slavery" - redemption song, b. marley
On Nov 13, 2006, at 6:49 AM, Dario Lopez-Kästen wrote:
Chris Withers said the following on 11/13/2006 12:11 PM:
Hafeliel wrote:
If you could, please take a moment to surf on over to http://zopereplacement.wikidot.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=numpty
Try doing a bit more digging before wasting your time writing this rubbish.
I suggest you take a good long hard look at Zope 3, read the 2 books, and then come back...
yeah, I can see how this kind of attitude draws lots and lots of new followers to zope.
Sure, the man might be mistaken and misinformed, but if it is hard to understand the tool, maybe some docs or references might be in order, thoughI fail to see anythign zope related in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll unless we mean to describe the attitude towards criticism we/some of us don't like (like to deal with?).
I probably sounds like a broken record but: My suggestion to the Zope developers is look at Apache's documentation. Its all there, complete, in one place. Wiki's do not document. They are for discussions and new ideas, etc. Internal docs are just for a few limited instances. They require you to be working in Zope at the time, they can not be printed, they can not really be searched. Perry Smith Ease Software, Inc. pedz@easesoftware.com http://www.easesoftware.com Low cost SATA Products for IBMs p5, pSeries, and RS/6000 AIX systems
--On 13. November 2006 07:24:20 -0600 Perry Smith <pedz@easesoftware.com> wrote:
On Nov 13, 2006, at 6:49 AM, Dario Lopez-Kästen wrote:
Chris Withers said the following on 11/13/2006 12:11 PM:
Hafeliel wrote:
If you could, please take a moment to surf on over to http://zopereplacement.wikidot.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=numpty
Try doing a bit more digging before wasting your time writing this rubbish.
I suggest you take a good long hard look at Zope 3, read the 2 books, and then come back...
yeah, I can see how this kind of attitude draws lots and lots of new followers to zope.
Sure, the man might be mistaken and misinformed, but if it is hard to understand the tool, maybe some docs or references might be in order, thoughI fail to see anythign zope related in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll unless we mean to describe the attitude towards criticism we/some of us don't like (like to deal with?).
I probably sounds like a broken record but:
My suggestion to the Zope developers is look at Apache's documentation. Its all there, complete, in one place. Wiki's do not document. They are for discussions and new ideas, etc. Internal docs are just for a few limited instances. They require you to be working in Zope at the time, they can not be printed, they can not really be searched.
This is all true but historical reasons and because "the community" did not help much to improve the situation. So the current situation is basically a mirror of its community?! Anyway, this wiki contains a bunch of false information or information written by a person that has little idea about Zope. If someone comes up with such a wiki one can expect solid and right information but at least half of the stuff is just wrong and some parts of the wiki really deserve the predicate "written by a numpty"...sorry but I prefer to make clear statements :-) -aj
Perry Smith wrote: (snip)
My suggestion to the Zope developers is look at Apache's documentation. Its all there, complete, in one place. Wiki's do not document. They are for discussions and new ideas, etc.
Trac's documentation is mainly in the wiki, and it works just fine. And the best place for discussions is the mailing-list IMHO. -- bruno desthuilliers développeur bruno@modulix.org http://www.modulix.com
Dario Lopez-Kästen wrote:
yeah, I can see how this kind of attitude draws lots and lots of new followers to zope.
This guy doesn't want Zope, he wants something lighter like Django or Pylons. He might find what he's looking for in Zope 3...
I am sure that treating him like dirt under our shoes will help improve his perception of zope and why it is such a wonderfull tool.
Well, he's treating us like dirt, Dario. Rather than spending time helping to document Zope, he's gone off and built a wiki slating it. Thanks, but no thanks...
I am not sure, however, that the zope community needs this kind of ad hominem argumentation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem) towards any and all that raise any kind of issue with zope.
This certainly isn't the case. People who expect their work to get doen for them for free will get a hard time. I'd suggest that people who come with particularly unconstructive approaches to how zope may be improved will also come in for a similarly hard time... cheers, Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk
For the record: my original response was not aimed at you personally Chris, it was just that your mail triggered the whole thing. I apologize for making you the target (and for feeding some trolls :). Chris Withers said the following on 11/13/2006 04:38 PM:
Well, he's treating us like dirt, Dario. Rather than spending time helping to document Zope, he's gone off and built a wiki slating it. Thanks, but no thanks...
hm... ok, point taken. However: he is not treating us like dirt. Not all zope-users have the historical baggage where zope gets treated like a second class citizen in the Python community, usually with some gross misconception about what zope does as a basis for that. If he publishes a wiki with some misconceptions, so what? Will it have more impact than all the other sites that don't grok zope and therefore dismisses it? No, probably not. But us going on like "you obviously don't get it, do you? In fact, you dont seem to get anything about the web, even. Go away!" is not the way either: instead of getting an enlightened zope user, we get yet another "zope sucks"-person with a bunch of misconceptions about zope out in the wild. I am not defending his misconceptions (if there are any - i haven't spent much time reading his wiki, really) and I generally agree that spending time thinking about a fork is futile. I somehow can understand his position, though, having rewritten some of our systems based on what they should do, instead of trying to understand the original spaghetti code (but my code is nowhere near the complexity of Zope, on the other hand). Nevertheless, I think we as a community could show some class and style. Everybody needs to be treated with some degree of respect, and it's not like he's going to write a zope fork, in real life; and so what if he did, if it was better, then we could probably learn something, if it isn't better, nothing will have changed for us.
This certainly isn't the case. People who expect their work to get doen for them for free will get a hard time. I'd suggest that people who come with particularly unconstructive approaches to how zope may be improved will also come in for a similarly hard time...
Yes, in general, but in our case, I get the feeling that *anyone* that does not agree with the zope-philosophy, or questions the way zope works, gets a smack in the head. This is just the latest example. I am not trying to tell people how to behave, though, even if it may sound like it - I am just trying to point out some things about our attitude that we should be aware of as a community. /dario -- -- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Dario Lopez-Kästen, IT Systems & Services Chalmers University of Tech. Lyrics applied to programming & application design: "emancipate yourself from mental slavery" - redemption song, b. marley
--On 14. November 2006 09:35:18 +0100 Dario Lopez-Kästen <dario@ita.chalmers.se> wrote:
If he publishes a wiki with some misconceptions, so what? Will it have more impact than all the other sites that don't grok zope and therefore dismisses it? No, probably not.
The wiki is full of mistakes and wrong informations. It can't remain uncommented. The quality of the wiki is so poor that it has to commented in a very clear way. The reflects the intellectual horizon of a person with very limited Zope experience.
Yes, in general, but in our case, I get the feeling that *anyone* that does not agree with the zope-philosophy, or questions the way zope works, gets a smack in the head. This is just the latest example.
People get a smack on the head for telling nonsense and wrong facts. Unfortunately that happened a lot of times in the past. Remember the thread about Zope 2 would fade out. This wiki really contains mostly trash and wrong facts. Clear language is sometimes is the only choice for people to understand that they are wrong. Andreas
For the record: my original response was not aimed at you personally Chris, it was just that your mail triggered the whole thing. I apologize for making you the target (and for feeding some trolls :).
You make some very valid, correct points but then also make a very incorrect assumption as well. I don't believe the original poster is a troll and neither am I or anyone else who has agreed that this list needs to have some more class and enlightenment. I've been saying that for quite a while and if that gets me labelled a troll for some reason then it proves the need for an attitude change. I think you're flattering yourselves to be honest, if you believe you have so many 'trolls' posting to your list. On 11/14/06, Dario Lopez-Kästen <dario@ita.chalmers.se> wrote:
For the record: my original response was not aimed at you personally Chris, it was just that your mail triggered the whole thing. I apologize for making you the target (and for feeding some trolls :).
Chris Withers said the following on 11/13/2006 04:38 PM:
Well, he's treating us like dirt, Dario. Rather than spending time helping to document Zope, he's gone off and built a wiki slating it. Thanks, but no thanks...
hm... ok, point taken. However: he is not treating us like dirt. Not all zope-users have the historical baggage where zope gets treated like a second class citizen in the Python community, usually with some gross misconception about what zope does as a basis for that.
If he publishes a wiki with some misconceptions, so what? Will it have more impact than all the other sites that don't grok zope and therefore dismisses it? No, probably not.
But us going on like "you obviously don't get it, do you? In fact, you dont seem to get anything about the web, even. Go away!" is not the way either: instead of getting an enlightened zope user, we get yet another "zope sucks"-person with a bunch of misconceptions about zope out in the wild.
I am not defending his misconceptions (if there are any - i haven't spent much time reading his wiki, really) and I generally agree that spending time thinking about a fork is futile. I somehow can understand his position, though, having rewritten some of our systems based on what they should do, instead of trying to understand the original spaghetti code (but my code is nowhere near the complexity of Zope, on the other hand).
Nevertheless, I think we as a community could show some class and style. Everybody needs to be treated with some degree of respect, and it's not like he's going to write a zope fork, in real life; and so what if he did, if it was better, then we could probably learn something, if it isn't better, nothing will have changed for us.
This certainly isn't the case. People who expect their work to get doen for them for free will get a hard time. I'd suggest that people who come with particularly unconstructive approaches to how zope may be improved will also come in for a similarly hard time...
Yes, in general, but in our case, I get the feeling that *anyone* that does not agree with the zope-philosophy, or questions the way zope works, gets a smack in the head. This is just the latest example.
I am not trying to tell people how to behave, though, even if it may sound like it - I am just trying to point out some things about our attitude that we should be aware of as a community.
/dario
-- -- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Dario Lopez-Kästen, IT Systems & Services Chalmers University of Tech. Lyrics applied to programming & application design: "emancipate yourself from mental slavery" - redemption song, b. marley
_______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
-- michael
michael nt milne said the following on 11/14/2006 10:59 AM:
You make some very valid, correct points but then also make a very incorrect assumption as well. I don't believe the original poster is a troll and neither am I or anyone else who has agreed that this list needs to have some more class and enlightenment.
agreed, but I meant this jokingly, and besides: perhaps we *all* could characterise ourselves as trolls we when spend 8 more or less consecutive mails on the list for name calling of various sorts :-) /dario -- -- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Dario Lopez-Kästen, IT Systems & Services Chalmers University of Tech. Lyrics applied to programming & application design: "emancipate yourself from mental slavery" - redemption song, b. marley
Dario Lopez-Kästen wrote:
hm... ok, point taken. However: he is not treating us like dirt.
Yes he is; by simply not bothering to do any real research before making huge sweeping statements...
If he publishes a wiki with some misconceptions, so what?
If it's full of crap, quite a few people will let him know ;-)
Will it have more impact than all the other sites that don't grok zope and therefore dismisses it? No, probably not.
Yeah, but they got their fair share of trouble too...
But us going on like "you obviously don't get it, do you? In fact, you dont seem to get anything about the web, even. Go away!"
If that's true, then why not?
either: instead of getting an enlightened zope user, we get yet another "zope sucks"-person with a bunch of misconceptions about zope out in the wild.
Some people can't be helped...
spending time thinking about a fork is futile. I somehow can understand his position, though, having rewritten some of our systems based on what they should do, instead of trying to understand the original spaghetti code (but my code is nowhere near the complexity of Zope, on the other hand).
I don't there's anything out of the ordinary with this pattern, it's what happens with all software development...
Everybody needs to be treated with some degree of respect, and it's not
Sorry, I disagree. Respect is a mutual thing.
Yes, in general, but in our case, I get the feeling that *anyone* that does not agree with the zope-philosophy, or questions the way zope works, gets a smack in the head. This is just the latest example.
Nah, I don't agree, sorry. If that had been the case, how did Zope 3 come into being? ;-)
I am not trying to tell people how to behave, though, even if it may sound like it - I am just trying to point out some things about our attitude that we should be aware of as a community.
I'd say, as a community, we don't tolerate fools lightly. I see that as a good thing... Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk
Chris Withers said the following on 11/15/2006 09:00 AM:
But us going on like "you obviously don't get it, do you? In fact, you dont seem to get anything about the web, even. Go away!"
If that's true, then why not?
because it is not nice and we behave like them if we do? :-)
either: instead of getting an enlightened zope user, we get yet another "zope sucks"-person with a bunch of misconceptions about zope out in the wild.
Some people can't be helped...
well, we don't need more of them, so we should avoid that as much as we can...
Everybody needs to be treated with some degree of respect, and it's not
Sorry, I disagree. Respect is a mutual thing.
oh, yes, but when someone solicits opinions and gets whacked in the head because we don't like his ideas, then it is us that lack in respect, not them.
Yes, in general, but in our case, I get the feeling that *anyone* that does not agree with the zope-philosophy, or questions the way zope works, gets a smack in the head. This is just the latest example.
Nah, I don't agree, sorry. If that had been the case, how did Zope 3 come into being? ;-)
Because Jim is not someone to get smacked in the head? :-)
I am not trying to tell people how to behave, though, even if it may sound like it - I am just trying to point out some things about our attitude that we should be aware of as a community.
I'd say, as a community, we don't tolerate fools lightly. I see that as a good thing...
It is a problem because that makes us stand out as bunch of ignorable, elitist *ssh*les to the world. That is not a good thing in my book. YMMV. /dario -- -- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Dario Lopez-Kästen, IT Systems & Services Chalmers University of Tech. Lyrics applied to programming & application design: "emancipate yourself from mental slavery" - redemption song, b. marley
Hafeliel wrote:
If you could, please take a moment to surf on over to http://zopereplacement.wikidot.com/
to understand the design choices made in zope, one could summarize its evolution as: - a genuinely great idea that allowed to publish python objects on the web in a completely transparent way. That was revolutionary at the time compared to CGI programming. then starting from here, the rest is mostly about fixing the original design in order to allow for: - defining an automatic mapping between objects (and their methods) and published URLs - protecting potentially hundreds of python objects from being accessed anonymously - persisting the changes done on these objects - finding objects in an object space that knows nothing about unique ids, indexation, and other query languages - presenting these objects in a browser ZODB, acquisition, DTML, ZPT, views, the 5 or 10 different security models, even zope3, are all attempts at solving these issues in one way or the other, each layer adding more complexity to the original stack. Zope developers who have been there since the beginning know about of all the stacks, other programmers will probably stumble on some documentation about acquisition or ZClasses, some bobobase or principia archaisms... and will fail to make sense of it. /JM
My thanks to everyone who took the time to reply. Here's what I'm hearing: [1] Many of you agree that the Zope Book is woefully incomplete. Paul, for example, was kind enough to point out that the Image class is a descendent of the Persistent class. I opened my Zope Book back up to see how I could have missed this, and as I expected, the book doesn't show this ancestorage. In fact, the Persistent class isn't listed in Appendix B at all. [2] Some of you felt that it is acceptable that Zope's "complete docs" are scattered across the web. I disagree. The Zope Book should be complete if it's going to pretend to be the docs for Zope. The docs for Python, for example, seem to be complete. You might have to surf around a bit to find an example that does what you want, but you don't have to dig into the source for Python just to find out what methods are available to a given class! That's not acceptable IMHO. [3] Many of you have attacked me personally. <sarcasm> Gee, thanks. </sarcasm> I am not a troll. A troll is a person who takes only a minute to toss a match into dry brush so he can watch the fire break out. I, on the other hand, am trying to create something. I'm investing my time by creating a wiki, I'm soliciting advice from people who know more about Zope than I do (you guys), I'm writing code, and I'm trying to create something better. By calling me names, you've essentially elevated Zope to the stature of a religion and are branding me a heretic for daring to question it. That's not how an open source community should work. If you do not like the direction I'm headed, then by all means, do not follow. Stick with Zope and enjoy it, but I personally think that a light-weight alternative that doesn't protect us from doing what we want to do would be better. How big is a Zope install, 20M? I'm not at my home PC at the moment, so I can't check. I'm betting that all the good stuff Zope really needs could fit in 50k. That leaves a 19.95M barrier to entry. I feel that all this overhead is some of what is keeping people away from Zope. [4] Many of you hate the wiki. My apologies. Rome wasn't built in a day. A good wiki is good because so many people contribute to it. Until more people contribute, you can only expect so much. Perry, I'm sorry you had problems with the wiki software. It seems to work best if you configure IE so that it doesn't block cookies from that domain. [5] Several of you defended Zope by saying that it evolved to be the beast that it is. Frankly, that's a terrible reason to live with a mess. Sometimes it takes starting over to get going in the right direction. [6] You're right that I'm totally ignorant about Zope 3. I've never played with it. I will try to make some time for that. However, my gripes with the original Zope is that there is too much. I really just want the Zope basics. Adding more to Zope will not make me happier. That's why I'm pushing to making it an Apache module. Apache is wildly popular and used in a tremendous number of servers. It already does most everything, so why re-invent the wheel? Let's just add on the few missing pieces so we can give developers the tools they need to build the rest of the car. As for me, personally, I'm going to press on making a Zope alternative. I don't mean it as any insult to anyone who loves Zope. A buddy of mine drew some parallels to an SQL product he uses. Someone created an SQL Lite version of it for people who don't need all of the SQL's advanced features. By doing so, it was not an insult to those who created the SQL program in the first place. It was merely an alternative for projects where the Lite version was better suited. So follow if you dare, help if you'd like, but shout your insults at my back. I see no reason to stick around a community that treats me like this when I'm only trying to help. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link Don't quit your job - take classes online www.Classesusa.com
Hafeliel escribió:
My thanks to everyone who took the time to reply.
Here's what I'm hearing:
[1] Many of you agree that the Zope Book is woefully incomplete. Paul, for example, was kind enough to point out that the Image class is a descendent of the Persistent class.
I opened my Zope Book back up to see how I could have missed this, and as I expected, the book doesn't show this ancestorage. In fact, the Persistent class isn't listed in Appendix B at all.
Absolute agree with these: if Zope documentation was complete some of us don't need to ask at the list but it's dificult to say how to finish it: everybody is busy every time I think the better people to finish the book is the creators themselves
[2] Some of you felt that it is acceptable that Zope's "complete docs" are scattered across the web. I disagree. The Zope Book should be complete if it's going to pretend to be the docs for Zope.
The docs for Python, for example, seem to be complete. You might have to surf around a bit to find an example that does what you want, but you don't have to dig into the source for Python just to find out what methods are available to a given class! That's not acceptable IMHO.
[3] Many of you have attacked me personally. <sarcasm> Gee, thanks. </sarcasm> I am not a troll. A troll is a person who takes only a minute to toss a match into dry brush so he can watch the fire break out. I, on the other hand, am trying to create something. I'm investing my time by creating a wiki, I'm soliciting advice from people who know more about Zope than I do (you guys), I'm writing code, and I'm trying to create something better.
By calling me names, you've essentially elevated Zope to the stature of a religion and are branding me a heretic for daring to question it. That's not how an open source community should work.
Sometimes I'm agree because I read too much times: weird way Zope was a weird thing when it starts but now has a community with people working on it Weird things today was the standar tomorrow And is not new some people answerd to the list with a rude comment (you could see it in the archives)
If you do not like the direction I'm headed, then by all means, do not follow. Stick with Zope and enjoy it, but I personally think that a light-weight alternative that doesn't protect us from doing what we want to do would be better.
How big is a Zope install, 20M? I'm not at my home PC at the moment, so I can't check. I'm betting that all the good stuff Zope really needs could fit in 50k. That leaves a 19.95M barrier to entry. I feel that all this overhead is some of what is keeping people away from Zope.
I would like a light-weight zope version but not in that way. In my opinion I don't integrate some products in the zope core (for example, wait, Aj, calm, please, DTML's). Perhaps a more Productic Zope Perhaps a basic zope with the minium to work and then products
[4] Many of you hate the wiki. My apologies. Rome wasn't built in a day. A good wiki is good because so many people contribute to it. Until more people contribute, you can only expect so much.
Perry, I'm sorry you had problems with the wiki software. It seems to work best if you configure IE so that it doesn't block cookies from that domain.
If you want to create an alternative zope book, poor. We need a better zope book not 2 independent books There are webs with recipes, we don't need more too If you want to express your opinion a weblog will be a good way
[5] Several of you defended Zope by saying that it evolved to be the beast that it is. Frankly, that's a terrible reason to live with a mess. Sometimes it takes starting over to get going in the right direction.
[6] You're right that I'm totally ignorant about Zope 3. I've never played with it. I will try to make some time for that. However, my gripes with the original Zope is that there is too much. I really just want the Zope basics. Adding more to Zope will not make me happier.
That's why I'm pushing to making it an Apache module. Apache is wildly popular and used in a tremendous number of servers. It already does most everything, so why re-invent the wheel? Let's just add on the few missing pieces so we can give developers the tools they need to build the rest of the car.
As for me, personally, I'm going to press on making a Zope alternative. I don't mean it as any insult to anyone who loves Zope.
A buddy of mine drew some parallels to an SQL product he uses. Someone created an SQL Lite version of it for people who don't need all of the SQL's advanced features. By doing so, it was not an insult to those who created the SQL program in the first place. It was merely an alternative for projects where the Lite version was better suited.
So follow if you dare, help if you'd like, but shout your insults at my back. I see no reason to stick around a community that treats me like this when I'm only trying to help.
____________________________________________________________________________________ Sponsored Link
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_______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
-- Mis Cosas http://blogs.sistes.net/Garito
--On 15. November 2006 07:35:48 -0800 Hafeliel <hafeliel@yahoo.com> wrote:
My thanks to everyone who took the time to reply.
Here's what I'm hearing:
[1] Many of you agree that the Zope Book is woefully incomplete. Paul, for example, was kind enough to point out that the Image class is a descendent of the Persistent class.
I opened my Zope Book back up to see how I could have missed this, and as I expected, the book doesn't show this ancestorage. In fact, the Persistent class isn't listed in Appendix B at all.
[2] Some of you felt that it is acceptable that Zope's "complete docs" are scattered across the web. I disagree. The Zope Book should be complete if it's going to pretend to be the docs for Zope.
The docs for Python, for example, seem to be complete. You might have to surf around a bit to find an example that does what you want, but you don't have to dig into the source for Python just to find out what methods are available to a given class! That's not acceptable IMHO.
This thread is about your wiki, not about the docs. That's a different story.
[3] Many of you have attacked me personally. <sarcasm> Gee, thanks. </sarcasm> I am not a troll. A troll is a person who takes only a minute to toss a match into dry brush so he can watch the fire break out. I, on the other hand, am trying to create something. I'm investing my time by creating a wiki, I'm soliciting advice from people who know more about Zope than I do (you guys), I'm writing code, and I'm trying to create something better.
By calling me names, you've essentially elevated Zope to the stature of a religion and are branding me a heretic for daring to question it. That's not how an open source community should work.
If you do not like the direction I'm headed, then by all means, do not follow. Stick with Zope and enjoy it, but I personally think that a light-weight alternative that doesn't protect us from doing what we want to do would be better.
Zope 2 is likely the wrong tool for you because it is too huge, too complex or because it just does not fit your brain. Because of the number of wrong facts in your wiki you would better use something easier like Django, Turbogears, Zope 3. You want something small and light, the Python world has several alternatives that might fit your needs.
How big is a Zope install, 20M? I'm not at my home PC at the moment, so I can't check. I'm betting that all the good stuff Zope really needs could fit in 50k. That leaves a 19.95M barrier to entry. I feel that all this overhead is some of what is keeping people away from Zope.
Zope 2 is a huge framework. Don't compare it to *programming languages* like PHP. Complex frameworks require some intelligence and personal efforts.
[4] Many of you hate the wiki. My apologies. Rome wasn't built in a day. A good wiki is good because so many people contribute to it. Until more people contribute, you can only expect so much.
Rome was build on solid stones, not on wrong facts.
[5] Several of you defended Zope by saying that it evolved to be the beast that it is. Frankly, that's a terrible reason to live with a mess. Sometimes it takes starting over to get going in the right direction.
If you think it is a mess than provide evidence based on true facts. The wiki is created with a bunch of ignorance.
[6] You're right that I'm totally ignorant about Zope 3. I've never played with it. I will try to make some time for that. However, my gripes with the original Zope is that there is too much. I really just want the Zope basics. Adding more to Zope will not make me happier.
Take Zope 3. It's pluggable and highly adaptable. Zope 2 is not for you .
That's why I'm pushing to making it an Apache module. Apache is wildly popular and used in a tremendous number of servers. It already does most everything, so why re-invent the wheel? Let's just add on the few missing pieces so we can give developers the tools they need to build the rest of the car.
Must we care?
As for me, personally, I'm going to press on making a Zope alternative. I don't mean it as any insult to anyone who loves Zope.
Go, go, go and reinvent wheels. You are blind because you don't see the alternatives that are available.
A buddy of mine drew some parallels to an SQL product he uses. Someone created an SQL Lite version of it for people who don't need all of the SQL's advanced features. By doing so, it was not an insult to those who created the SQL program in the first place. It was merely an alternative for projects where the Lite version was better suited.
Yes, go and build yet another Python web framework. We have already more web frameworks than keywords in Python. I dedicate the new Python 2.5 keyword "with" to your new framework. The world really don't need another Python web framework. With have two solid frameworks like Django and TG, and Zope 2 and Zope 3...enough for the whole world
So follow if you dare, help if you'd like, but shout your insults at my back. I see no reason to stick around a community that treats me like this when I'm only trying to help.
Please open your eyes, look around and find all the fine Python frameworks that are already available. Pick them up, help improving them. -aj
On Wed, Nov 15, 2006 at 07:35:48AM -0800, Hafeliel wrote:
My thanks to everyone who took the time to reply.
Here's what I'm hearing:
[1] Many of you agree that the Zope Book is woefully incomplete. Paul, for example, was kind enough to point out that the Image class is a descendent of the Persistent class.
I opened my Zope Book back up to see how I could have missed this, and as I expected, the book doesn't show this ancestorage. In fact, the Persistent class isn't listed in Appendix B at all.
The paper books for zope 2 are all ancient. REALLY ancient. The latest is here: http://www.plope.com/Books/2_7Edition It's also a bit old, but it has a *lot* of updates since the paper version and even since the previous online edition. IMO the community badly needs somebody to overhaul the Zope Book and Zope Developers' Guide. Unfortunately, that's a *very* labor-intensive job, and pretty much everybody with sufficient knowledge has too much paying work to do that, myself included. Kudos to Chris McDonough and the contributors for getting the 2.7 edition as far as it got. Meanwhile, zopewiki.org is very very useful.
If you do not like the direction I'm headed, then by all means, do not follow. Stick with Zope and enjoy it, but I personally think that a light-weight alternative that doesn't protect us from doing what we want to do would be better.
FWIW, there's lots of those. Pylons maybe?
[5] Several of you defended Zope by saying that it evolved to be the beast that it is. Frankly, that's a terrible reason to live with a mess.
A large number of working deployments, OTOH, is a very good reason to not throw away the past :)
Sometimes it takes starting over to get going in the right direction.
A couple of people have mentioned Zope 3 already... We've been in the process of "starting over" for several years now. There's simultaneously an evolution of Zope 2 to use more and more of Zope 3. Unfortunately this means zope 2 is going to get bigger before it can get smaller. Read the archives of the zope3-dev list for some ideas on how this might all pan out... Jim's message "Two visions" from Feb. of this year. People like to start from scratch, but sooner or later they end up reinventing all the features they threw away :) We're trying to find a way not to throw out all the good stuff.
That's why I'm pushing to making it an Apache module.
There has been some work done on running zope under Apache. Google for modzope.
Apache is wildly popular and used in a tremendous number of servers. It already does most everything, so why re-invent the wheel? Let's just add on the few missing pieces so we can give developers the tools they need to build the rest of the car.
"does most everything"? "few missing pieces"? How can you compare an HTTP server to a full-featured web development framework?
So follow if you dare, help if you'd like, but shout your insults at my back. I see no reason to stick around a community that treats me like this when I'm only trying to help.
FWIW, while I do think you have some misconceptions of where zope is going, I do think the tone got a lot harsher than necessary. I haven't posted on your wiki because I prefer mailing lists. -- Paul Winkler http://www.slinkp.com
Hafeliel wrote:
My thanks to everyone who took the time to reply.
Here's what I'm hearing:
[1] Many of you agree that the Zope Book is woefully incomplete. Paul, for example, was kind enough to point out that the Image class is a descendent of the Persistent class.
Woo, what a scoop. It tooks me a few minutes to find this out when I started playing with Zope...
I opened my Zope Book back up to see how I could have missed this, and as I expected, the book doesn't show this ancestorage. In fact, the Persistent class isn't listed in Appendix B at all.
[2] Some of you felt that it is acceptable that Zope's "complete docs" are scattered across the web. I disagree. The Zope Book should be complete if it's going to pretend to be the docs for Zope.
I've never seen a "complete" and up to date documentation for any software - open source or not. At least with Open Source projects you have the source code...
The docs for Python, for example, seem to be complete. You might have to surf around a bit to find an example that does what you want, but you don't have to dig into the source for Python just to find out what methods are available to a given class!
That's not acceptable IMHO.
Oh yes ? "not acceptable", huh ? Please, remind us how much bucks you paid for Zope ? Now go have a look at the licence fees for proprietary Web Application Servers.
[3] Many of you have attacked me personally. <sarcasm> Gee, thanks. </sarcasm> I am not a troll. A troll is a person who takes only a minute to toss a match into dry brush so he can watch the fire break out. I, on the other hand, am trying to create something. I'm investing my time by creating a wiki,
There's already a Zope wiki. (snip non-sens)
If you do not like the direction I'm headed, then by all means, do not follow. Stick with Zope and enjoy it, but I personally think that a light-weight alternative that doesn't protect us from doing what we want to do would be better.
You're still showing your ignorance and total lack of understanding of how Zope works. I have less that 10 years of programming experience, and was able to address *all* of the "problems" you're complaining about since my first Zope project (which I started 2 weeks after having done my first Zope install).
How big is a Zope install, 20M? I'm not at my home PC at the moment, so I can't check. I'm betting that all the good stuff Zope really needs could fit in 50k.
Lol. (snip)
[5] Several of you defended Zope by saying that it evolved to be the beast that it is. Frankly, that's a terrible reason to live with a mess. Sometimes it takes starting over to get going in the right direction.
Ever heard of Zope 3 ?
[6] You're right that I'm totally ignorant about Zope
I think there's not much more to say.
3. I've never played with it. I will try to make some time for that. However, my gripes with the original Zope is that there is too much. I really just want the Zope basics. Adding more to Zope will not make me happier.
That's why I'm pushing to making it an Apache module. Apache is wildly popular and used in a tremendous number of servers. It already does most everything, so why re-invent the wheel?
It seems that you are not only ignorant about Zope.
As for me, personally, I'm going to press on making a Zope alternative.
Python is known to have more web frameworks than keywords. Could it be possible that you're also ignorant of this ? (snip)
So follow if you dare, help if you'd like, but shout your insults at my back. I see no reason to stick around a community that treats me like this when I'm only trying to help.
You're not "trying to help", you are complaining about things you don't understand. If what you want is a Apache-integrated server-page system, you have mod_python + PSP. If you want a lightweight MVC framework, then either Django, Turbogears, Pylons or web.py are for you. Blaming Zope for not being what you want is just dumb. -- bruno desthuilliers développeur bruno@modulix.org http://www.modulix.com
Bruno Desthuilliers said the following on 11/21/2006 11:32 AM:
<snip a bunch of stuff allready beat to death on the list>
uh... why did you need to bring this up again? /dario -- -- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Dario Lopez-Kästen, IT Systems & Services Chalmers University of Tech. Lyrics applied to programming & application design: "emancipate yourself from mental slavery" - redemption song, b. marley
participants (15)
-
Andreas Jung -
Andrew Milton -
Bruno Desthuilliers -
Chris Withers -
Dario Lopez-Kästen -
Garito -
Hafeliel -
Jean-Marc Orliaguet -
Jens Vagelpohl -
michael nt milne -
Paul Winkler -
Perry Smith -
Peter Bengtsson -
Raphael Pesche -
robert rottermann