ColdFusion - I want to remain a Zopista, please help
This email I received from the head of our IS dept. explains my situation (posted with sender's permission after anonymizing it). ======================================================== As you are all well aware there has been a recent surge in the amount of web design work that staff has been seeking. This has brought to light the fact that we need to have a standard in web design software. I am referring to design software that takes us beyond the level of what programs like Dreamweaver and Front Page can do. I believe the two options we have here are Zope and ColdFusion. Please put together a list of pros and cons regarding what you would like to use to accomplish some of our more intensive web design tasks. Send your lists to me via e-mail by the 26th of July and I will compile them into something that we can sit down and work through and come up with a decision on what our standard should be. I have checked to see if [the parent company] has a standard and it appears that they do not as they do not have a true web design group. Due to the increasing amount of work, I would like to make a decision on this rather quickly so as not to delay the production of any projects. ============================================================ I've been a Zopista for about a year so I can address the benefits of Zope, but I am not knowledgeable regarding ColdFusion. What is driving the pro-ColdFusion push is our graphics department whose main web tool is Dreamweaver. They don't do dynamic web programming or database integration and it took some explaining to move the choice from Zope vs. Dreamweaver to Zope vs. ColdFusion. I am looking for reasons why Zope is a better choice than ColdFusion. Any knowledgeable responses greatly appreciated. I sense that using Zope would be a non-issue if the graphics dept. was assured that they wouldn't have to abandon their GUI-based design tools. Does anyone have experience collaborating with Zope where the non-programming graphics people are sharing the Zope interface? Have you been able to find a mutually agreeable arrangement? There has been plenty of discussion regarding "Zopeweaver" but it sounds like integration is limited. -mojo clark _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
Hi, You may want to look into Zope Page Templates, which allow you to do almost all of what DTML can do, but allows your designers to continue to use their graphical tools without stomping on your programming if you take small amounts of care. http://dev.zope.org/Wikis/DevSite/Projects/ZPT/FrontPage - C Mojo Clark wrote:
This email I received from the head of our IS dept. explains my situation (posted with sender's permission after anonymizing it).
======================================================== As you are all well aware there has been a recent surge in the amount of web design work that staff has been seeking. This has brought to light the fact that we need to have a standard in web design software. I am referring to design software that takes us beyond the level of what programs like Dreamweaver and Front Page can do. I believe the two options we have here are Zope and ColdFusion.
Please put together a list of pros and cons regarding what you would like to use to accomplish some of our more intensive web design tasks. Send your lists to me via e-mail by the 26th of July and I will compile them into something that we can sit down and work through and come up with a decision on what our standard should be. I have checked to see if [the parent company] has a standard and it appears that they do not as they do not have a true web design group.
Due to the increasing amount of work, I would like to make a decision on this rather quickly so as not to delay the production of any projects. ============================================================
I've been a Zopista for about a year so I can address the benefits of Zope, but I am not knowledgeable regarding ColdFusion. What is driving the pro-ColdFusion push is our graphics department whose main web tool is Dreamweaver. They don't do dynamic web programming or database integration and it took some explaining to move the choice from Zope vs. Dreamweaver to Zope vs. ColdFusion.
I am looking for reasons why Zope is a better choice than ColdFusion. Any knowledgeable responses greatly appreciated.
I sense that using Zope would be a non-issue if the graphics dept. was assured that they wouldn't have to abandon their GUI-based design tools. Does anyone have experience collaborating with Zope where the non-programming graphics people are sharing the Zope interface? Have you been able to find a mutually agreeable arrangement?
There has been plenty of discussion regarding "Zopeweaver" but it sounds like integration is limited.
-mojo clark
_________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
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I sense that using Zope would be a non-issue if the graphics dept. was assured that they wouldn't have to abandon their GUI-based design tools. Does anyone have experience collaborating with Zope where the non-programming graphics people are sharing the Zope interface? Have you been able to find a mutually agreeable arrangement?
Have you read... http://www.zope.org/Wikis/DevSite/Projects/ZPT/UseCases ? I've got a Python Product in which one of our designers revamped the templates IN GOLIVE!! Not understanding one single code piece of Zope. As far as I know that's not possible with any other middleware tool. ZPT can change the lifecycle of web projects. Bad old one: -> trendy designer creates a Photoshop file (will probably look more like a Monet painting than a web site) -> 12 years-old junior web developer converts the Photoshop to HTML in Dreamweaver -> geeky application developer inserts business logic into the HTML in Emacs The result is that the process isn't reversable and the usability sucks because the web designer was given too free hands Good new one: -> application developer inserts business logic into a simple HTML document -> 12 years-old junior web developer helps designer with the "technical bits" -> trendy designer squeeze in a better look to working and simple HTML The pages can be modified by all parts without breaking down the continuing processes for anyone else. What's more, it sounds like you have a team there at your company. Not just yourself. Strongly emphasize the fact that Zope is built for teams rather than a one-man-job like ColdFusion seems to be. Peter
* Mojo Clark <mojoclark@hotmail.com> [010725 02:27]:
I am looking for reasons why Zope is a better choice than ColdFusion. Any knowledgeable responses greatly appreciated.
I don't know much about ZPT but it is potentially the answer you are looking for, as others have pointed out. I *have* had a lot of experience, both with ColdFusion and Zope, and Zope wins hands down for me. (Hmmm, a surprising answer from a poster on the zope list...;) <rant> My experiences with CF have been almost entirely negative. We tried deploying it on Solaris, and integrating it with iPlanet Directory Server. From the start, things started going wrong. Although Solaris is an officially supported platform, we had a huge array of problems, from installation to performace. Things got so bad we ended up having conversations with Jeremy Allaire. Although they claimed to support Solaris, it was based on win32 compatability libraries rather than a native port, and furthermore there only seemed to be a single Allaire developer who knew anything about it. Their tech support was terrible. If you must go with CF, deploy to NT only and go for a known stable version rather than the latest release. Furthermore, CF is a badly-designed language, IMO. You have to do everything using these stupid tags (I believe things might have progressed slightly since I was cursed with a CF project). There was an API for writing Java extensions, but of course it was buggy. We also used Spectra, which is the more constructive comparison with CF (you should compare CF with DTML, and Spectra with Zope / CMF). Again, this was about 16 months ago, but at the time, it was an appalling product, packed with bugs and hacks. It claimed to let you do stuff out of the box, but we had to completely rewrite most of it to our own requirements. The CMF doesn't claim to fit things out of the box, but at least it's honest :-) The CMF also lacks somewhat in documentation at this stage, but it's getting better. CF documentation is quite good, but the knowledge base and tech support are not. Going with Zope gives you access to all the source code, ZPT, and the CMF. Going with CF means you'd have to buy a shoddy support package, rely on Allaire to produce hotfixes, and have to do lots of code that looks about as attractive as a workflow system written entirely in DTML. </rant> (Can you tell I don't like Allaire? ;-) seb
I happen to like ColdFusion, and haven't had a problem with it running on NT or Solaris. Wonder what happened in your situation (not a bash, just curious as to what went wrong) To be honest, I am split between ColdFusion and Zope. I currently look at the needs of my customers, and then decide as to which tool I will use to solve their concerns. I like Zope because it's object oriented. Simply put, it's easier to design a site, because you have a framework on which to build. I didn't have that with ASP. But, on the other hand, with ColdFusion, you could follow the Fusebox standard - which would provide you with a framework on which to build. Fusebox is good, but only if you stick to the standard (and we all know about developers sticking to the standard!) However, Fusebox isn't completely object oriented; I have to hand it to them - it tried hard, but is in no way a match for the power of Zope. But, I have to say that the ability to write CustomTags was cool. I could try to design my site in more of an object oriented fashion, and could actually get a lot done. And you could usually find free custom tags on Allaire's site that did some wild things. Usually it was like plug and play, so if things were done right (following the standard), you could produce code that was pretty close to being object oriented. It just lacked the power of acquistion, but in all other aspects, it was pretty good. Now, I haven't had the time to learn Python yet. However, when I do, I know it will be more powerful than CustomTags. Now for documentation, well, Zope is getting better. I can usually find what I want now, and when I can't, this list has been a help. Thanks to all of you (Casey, Dieter, Andy M., Chris M., etc..) I like ColdFusion's simple database connections. I'm trying to connect Zope to Oracle, and I'm having some problems. can't pass judgement yet - except that it was much simplier to do it in ColdFusion (from the CF Admin interface). The only REAL thing that I prefer is ColdFusion's comments.(See the post going on about dtml-comments) But, that too, can be fixed, I'm sure. But for now, dtml-comments are hidious, which makes me comment code with HTML comments. But, if you view the HTML source, you'll see those comments. Oh well... And this is one is for Seb --> ColdFusion allows you to script as well. So if you don't like using their tags, by all means, write scripts to do what you want! HTH Tommy Innovation: The Best Way To Predict The Future ... Is To Create It.
-----Original Message----- From: zope-admin@zope.org [mailto:zope-admin@zope.org]On Behalf Of seb bacon Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2001 4:25 AM To: Mojo Clark Cc: zope@zope.org Subject: Re: [Zope] ColdFusion - I want to remain a Zopista, please help
* Mojo Clark <mojoclark@hotmail.com> [010725 02:27]:
I am looking for reasons why Zope is a better choice than ColdFusion. Any knowledgeable responses greatly appreciated.
I don't know much about ZPT but it is potentially the answer you are looking for, as others have pointed out.
I *have* had a lot of experience, both with ColdFusion and Zope, and Zope wins hands down for me. (Hmmm, a surprising answer from a poster on the zope list...;)
<rant>
My experiences with CF have been almost entirely negative. We tried deploying it on Solaris, and integrating it with iPlanet Directory Server. From the start, things started going wrong. Although Solaris is an officially supported platform, we had a huge array of problems, from installation to performace. Things got so bad we ended up having conversations with Jeremy Allaire. Although they claimed to support Solaris, it was based on win32 compatability libraries rather than a native port, and furthermore there only seemed to be a single Allaire developer who knew anything about it. Their tech support was terrible. If you must go with CF, deploy to NT only and go for a known stable version rather than the latest release.
Furthermore, CF is a badly-designed language, IMO. You have to do everything using these stupid tags (I believe things might have progressed slightly since I was cursed with a CF project). There was an API for writing Java extensions, but of course it was buggy. We also used Spectra, which is the more constructive comparison with CF (you should compare CF with DTML, and Spectra with Zope / CMF). Again, this was about 16 months ago, but at the time, it was an appalling product, packed with bugs and hacks. It claimed to let you do stuff out of the box, but we had to completely rewrite most of it to our own requirements. The CMF doesn't claim to fit things out of the box, but at least it's honest :-) The CMF also lacks somewhat in documentation at this stage, but it's getting better. CF documentation is quite good, but the knowledge base and tech support are not.
Going with Zope gives you access to all the source code, ZPT, and the CMF. Going with CF means you'd have to buy a shoddy support package, rely on Allaire to produce hotfixes, and have to do lots of code that looks about as attractive as a workflow system written entirely in DTML.
</rant> (Can you tell I don't like Allaire? ;-)
seb
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On Wed, 25 Jul 2001, Tommy Johnson wrote:
I like Zope because it's object oriented. Simply put, it's easier to design a site, because you have a framework on which to build. I didn't have that with ASP. But, on the other hand, with ColdFusion, you could follow the Fusebox standard - which would provide you with a framework on which to build. Fusebox is good, but only if you stick to the standard (and we all know about developers sticking to the standard!) However, Fusebox isn't completely object oriented; I have to hand it to them - it tried hard, but is in no way a match for the power of Zope.
Some light standardization can be a Very Good Thing, though. Consider: due to the CMF, in 6 months, most new Zope sites will use properties "description", "subject", "expiration_date", and so on for objects, and ProductDesigners can build products that rely on this. At our Center, objects have properties like "nickname" (how it appears in the breadcrumb list), "expiration_date" (when it is flagged as expired), and others. I think it would be a very positive thing if ZC, or someone else, recommended some general standards for new sites. One wouldn't have to follow them, but it one be to your benefit in many cases. -- Joel Burton <jburton@scw.org> Director of Information Systems, Support Center of Washington
Whether Cold Fusion might be a better choice depends on what you want to do. CF is very good for creating individual web pages that connect to databases and work with form and session variables. Using stylesheets and custom tags (written in CFML, Cold Fusion Markup Language), you can get a consistent look and feel if you want to. It's easier to connect to different databases and write queries in CF, because the connection can be changed easily and all your methods are not chopped up and isolated. CFML is very easy to use and read, and makes it easy to set local variables, something that is awkward in Zope. Also, on the Windows platform you can script COM objects, so you can get tremendous functionality very easily if there happens to be a COM object that does what you want. The development environment (CF Studio) is excellent, and supports external version control systems. So if that's the kind of thing you want to do, and CF supports your relational database, CF is probably the better choice. If you want to do more, escape into Python, build complex frameworks, work with databases that CF doesn't support, run on non-windows platforms, use O-O features, want to customize or remove bugs, or have a low budget but can afford the hours you'll need with Zope, then Zope would be the choice. I use both. One reason I use Zope is so I can use Python external methods. With CF, I would have to write C++ custom tags or write and compile COM objects (probably in C++ or VB); I'd much rather develop in Python. Cheers, Tom P
On Wed, 25 Jul 2001, Thomas B. Passin wrote:
Whether Cold Fusion might be a better choice depends on what you want to do. CF is very good for creating individual web pages that connect to databases and work with form and session variables. Using stylesheets and custom tags (written in CFML, Cold Fusion Markup Language), you can get a consistent look and feel if you want to. It's easier to connect to different databases and write queries in CF, because the connection can be changed easily and all your methods are not chopped up and isolated. CFML is very easy to use and read, and makes it easy to set local variables, something that is awkward in Zope.
One small thing to note: the dtml-set add-on makes local variables extremely clean: <dtml-set foo="'bar'"> for strings, replaces <dtml-call "REQUEST.set('foo','bar')"> <dtml-set foo="1+2"> for python expressions <dtml-set foo="'bar'" optional> replaces <dtml-unless foo> <dtml-call "REQUEST.set('foo','bar')"> </dtml-unless> -- Joel Burton <jburton@scw.org> Director of Information Systems, Support Center of Washington
[Joel Burton]
One small thing to note: the dtml-set add-on makes local variables extremely clean:
Yes, and I got very interested in it when I first read about it. I was concerned about a non-standard installation, and possible problems when the switch to Python 2.1 came, so I decided to wait. Then I read something, I forget the details, that suggested there might be some problems in using it depending on what you were trying to do. But I couldn't find that referencee again. So I decided to wait for awhile. But I'm still very interested. Perhaps you can allay my concerns and I'll start using it. Cheers, Tom P
On Wed, 25 Jul 2001, Thomas B. Passin wrote:
[Joel Burton]
One small thing to note: the dtml-set add-on makes local variables extremely clean:
Yes, and I got very interested in it when I first read about it. I was concerned about a non-standard installation, and possible problems when the switch to Python 2.1 came, so I decided to wait. Then I read something, I forget the details, that suggested there might be some problems in using it depending on what you were trying to do. But I couldn't find that referencee again.
So I decided to wait for awhile. But I'm still very interested. Perhaps you can allay my concerns and I'll start using it.
It's python 2.1 ready/Zope 2.4 ready. (To help alleviate the fears that you'll be stuck one day not being able to upgrade it, I patched it myself to be 2.4 ready, which took about 15 minutes, and I'm not a superguru. There is an official 2.4 version now, however.) I'd love to see the fine folks at the Zope Corporation roll it into the standard distribution. Perhaps we on the mailing list can cheerfully suggest this. It works perfectly, all the time. Can't think of any problems. Anyone? -- Joel Burton <jburton@scw.org> Director of Information Systems, Support Center of Washington
[Joel Burton, about dtml-set]
It's python 2.1 ready/Zope 2.4 ready. (To help alleviate the fears that you'll be stuck one day not being able to upgrade it, I patched it myself to be 2.4 ready, which took about 15 minutes, and I'm not a superguru. There is an official 2.4 version now, however.)
I'd love to see the fine folks at the Zope Corporation roll it into the standard distribution. Perhaps we on the mailing list can cheerfully suggest this.
It works perfectly, all the time. Can't think of any problems. Anyone?
Thanks very much, Joel. Tom P
Thomas B. Passin writes:
[Joel Burton]
One small thing to note: the dtml-set add-on makes local variables extremely clean:
Yes, and I got very interested in it when I first read about it.... If you want to compare Zope with CF, you should look at ZPT.
Local variables are no problem at all with ZPT. It has a very nice architecture, works very well with Web Design tools (such as DreamWeaver and GoLife) and uses much less magic than DTML. Dieter
[Dieter Maurer]
If you want to compare Zope with CF, you should look at ZPT.
Local variables are no problem at all with ZPT. It has a very nice architecture, works very well with Web Design tools (such as DreamWeaver and GoLife) and uses much less magic than DTML.
Yes, it's on my list ... one of these days ... Cheers, Tom P
* Thomas B. Passin <tpassin@mitretek.org> [010725 19:31]:
Also, on the Windows platform you can script COM objects, so you can get tremendous functionality very easily if there happens to be a COM object that does what you want. The development environment (CF Studio) is excellent, and supports external version control systems.
You can script COM in Zope, too. Use the win32com python module and you're laughing. I don't use Windows much but I understand python is a very powerful, general purpose scripting language for win32. I've a friend who swears by it - he's lent me the O'Reilly book but I've not read it yet. seb
Well, it was some time ago and I can't even remember the details. It was probably a lot of bad luck, but it was enough to scar me for life. I just wanted a rant, so mine is not a balanced view ;-) However, I'll try and rake my memory and be a bit more specific. 1) The performance on an E450 under moderate load was something like 60% of the performance of the same app on a PII/233. This is a bit like comparing chalk and cheese, but we also found that response time scaled linearly with load on NT, and exponentially on the E450, IIRC. A lot of other people on mailing lists reported similar results. Admittedly these were all seat-of-the-pants comparisons. 2) We were using Spectra v1, which was absolutely not supported properly on Solaris, despite what it said on the box. It took about a week to install it properly, and it had a dependency on iPlanet Directory Server, which they didn't admit to for months, and which meant we had to spend some ridiculous amounts of money on an iDS license (up to $1m, if I remember correctly - to support a 40k system...) It was also *full* of bugs. 3) The technical support was appalling. There really, literally was *one* person who seemed to know anything about their Solaris support *in the world*! Other tech support contacts kept telling me to do things like reboot the server to see if that worked. The whole episode left me with the impression that Allaire was rushing out products without any real technical underpinnings. Like I said, I was probably unlucky, so feel free to ignore me. I didn't like custom tags as a programming paradigm, and much prefer the ability to write pythonscripts etc in Zope. It had pretences to OO style without providing any of the real benefits, and it was stiflingly procedural for my tastes. It reminded me of programming in ASP. This is very subjective, though. Hope that was a bit more helpful. seb * Tommy Johnson <tommy@7x.com> [010725 18:30]:
I happen to like ColdFusion, and haven't had a problem with it running on NT or Solaris. Wonder what happened in your situation (not a bash, just curious as to what went wrong)
Joe: I'm sure you'll get plenty of technical comparisons based on options. But, there's also the business case. You don't say what business you're in, so it's hard to suggest anything along those lines. In particular, if you build for the U.S. Government, you may have some restrictions on the graphics folks' dream weaving. Seems the Feds want functionality, not pizaz. On Wed, 25 Jul 2001, Mojo Clark wrote:
This email I received from the head of our IS dept. explains my situation (posted with sender's permission after anonymizing it).
======================================================== As you are all well aware there has been a recent surge in the amount of web design work that staff has been seeking. This has brought to light the fact that we need to have a standard in web design software. I am referring to design software that takes us beyond the level of what programs like Dreamweaver and Front Page can do. I believe the two options we have here are Zope and ColdFusion.
Please put together a list of pros and cons regarding what you would like to use to accomplish some of our more intensive web design tasks. Send your lists to me via e-mail by the 26th of July and I will compile them into something that we can sit down and work through and come up with a decision on what our standard should be. I have checked to see if [the parent company] has a standard and it appears that they do not as they do not have a true web design group.
Due to the increasing amount of work, I would like to make a decision on this rather quickly so as not to delay the production of any projects. ============================================================
I've been a Zopista for about a year so I can address the benefits of Zope, but I am not knowledgeable regarding ColdFusion. What is driving the pro-ColdFusion push is our graphics department whose main web tool is Dreamweaver. They don't do dynamic web programming or database integration and it took some explaining to move the choice from Zope vs. Dreamweaver to Zope vs. ColdFusion.
I am looking for reasons why Zope is a better choice than ColdFusion. Any knowledgeable responses greatly appreciated.
I sense that using Zope would be a non-issue if the graphics dept. was assured that they wouldn't have to abandon their GUI-based design tools. Does anyone have experience collaborating with Zope where the non-programming graphics people are sharing the Zope interface? Have you been able to find a mutually agreeable arrangement?
There has been plenty of discussion regarding "Zopeweaver" but it sounds like integration is limited.
-mojo clark
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We recently switched from ColdFusion to Zope. Both products had to be usable not only by IT people, but by technically literate business users. This is a business perspective with a technical bent...-:) Here are some of the pros and cons of each... ColdFusion Pros Documentation Query Building IDE (Nick Bradbury's Homesite>>>ColdFusion Studio) and ColdFusion-Dreamweaver roundtrip Training availability History Cons ColdFusion Application Server is good, not great, requires another server and more then average monitoring. Productivity. Despite 1000's of custom tags, ColdFusion requires excessive coding to build basic data driven sites (One example would be the Fusbox calendar example. It consists of 5 pages of code, much of it complex and requires reworking if one wants to use it elsewhere for a different purpose within the same site. Offers less functionality then either the Calendar Tag or the Event Calendar.) Language: If you want custom programming, you will need MSVC++ Zope Pros Data driven from the get go. Can be used (on an Intranet) without IIs or Apache. (Some have said that Apache is faster. So far, in our use, which is real world as opposed to benchmarks, the difference is neglible and Zope is just as fast as the ColdFusion/Apache setup.) Productivity. No other tool on the market, commercial or open source, can compare with Zope...when it comes to building a functional data driven web site that can be maintained by technically literate users with a minimum knowledge of html and web technologies. (The above statement needs to read carefully. I base the statement on tests performed with a handful of users with absolutely no web experience.) Products: Products such as Squishdot are invaluable in corporate Intranet. The abililty to resuse the same product within the same site.. over and over again cannot be underestimated. Community: this list provides better support at no cost, then most commercial companies who charge outrageous fees. (One 12 minute call to MS about Exchange server cost $265 bucks) Community contributions and DC contributions to the source and bug fixes are quicker and in some ways, superior to the equivalent fixes provided by the majority of commercial software companies. (That includes Allarie and Macromedia) Security: Excellent out of the box security. Language. Python. It is a truly beautiful language, well documented, and training is readily available. In the hands of good programmer, there is no telling what could be developed with Python/Zope. Note: during our research, there were Python programmers who felt Zope was bad for Python and Zopista's who felt Python was bad for Zope. Go figure. Ease of use (don't laugh). Basic site building with Zope is extremely easy. Aquistion. It works, just don't ask me to explain it. Cons Documentation: Getting better but you won't find the 4 book documentation you get with ColdFusion Not enough benchmarks or test stats. (If you research a lot of products or Zope literature, you can start to get a little jumpy after reading "not for production, developement only, beta beta beta...this has an extremely negative effect on management) Ease of use [expletive deleted] Go above the basics and the learning curve is somewhat steep... ____________________________________________________________________________ __ If your graphics people are just doing graphics and not doing graphics/datadriven stuff ala Ultradev, then they can still use DW to design although they will not be able to the roundtrip stuff.
participants (10)
-
Bob Campbell -
Chris McDonough -
Dieter Maurer -
Janina Sajka -
Joel Burton -
Mojo Clark -
Peter Bengtsson -
seb bacon -
Thomas B. Passin -
Tommy Johnson