The name ZOPE (was RE: [Zope] Linux.com community ad)
-----Original Message----- From: Rafael Cordones Marcos [mailto:rcm@bcnartdirecte.com] Sent: Friday, October 15, 1999 04:41 To: Brian Lloyd Cc: Users of the Z Object Publishing Environment Subject: Re: [Zope] Linux.com community ad
On Thu, Oct 14, 1999 at 01:42:31PM -0400, Brian Lloyd wrote:
Michael, you are resourceful enough to make such a banner, aren't you?
Ok, I'll play. How about this one? :^)
These just came up:
- The web is made for Zopping. - Zope: the web with a Zertain Class. - Zope: work the web with class. - Zope: work the web with classes. - Zope makes the Web go round. (or is it "arround"?) - To Zope or not to Zope... that ain't a question!
NOTE: As English is not my mother tongue, thess phrases might have the wrong meaning for me. Feel free to modify them! ;)
I seem to be the one that rains on a lot of parades but I thought this was the time to bring up something thats been bothering me for awhile. The name ZOPE. In my opinion its not very good. It doesn't convey the sense of an enterprise object oriented web publishing system. It sounds silly. Zope as in Soap. Zope on a Rope. People look at me strange when I say I've been working with Zope. I think Z Object Publishing Environment is fine but thats not a name its a description. I personally think it needs a name that suggests the power, stability and flexibility that is Zope. Am I alone in this thought?
Jay, Dylan wrote:
People look at me strange when I say I've been working with Zope. I think Z Object Publishing Environment is fine but thats not a name its a description. I personally think it needs a name that suggests the power, stability and flexibility that is Zope.
But lots of names in the computing world are actually quite silly. You're just used to them. How about 'Python', for instance? "I've been programming in <snake/bizarre comedy show>." Or 'Linux' (silly word play on Unix and Linus, and they have a *penguin* as a logo?). Or GNU (what kind of animal?). A 'daemon', you say? Software is just full of funny words like that. Makes life interesting. While 'Zope' doesn't strike me as "wow, what a *great* name", at least the word is unique. It'll show up in web searches, and you know practically all hits will be about *our* Zope, not something else. Besides-people-look-at-me-strange-anyway-ly yours, Martijn
Jay, Dylan writes:
I seem to be the one that rains on a lot of parades but I thought this was the time to bring up something thats been bothering me for awhile. The name ZOPE. In my opinion its not very good. It doesn't convey the sense of an enterprise object oriented web publishing system. It sounds silly. Zope as in Soap. Zope on a Rope. People look at me strange when I say I've been working with Zope. I think Z Object Publishing Environment is fine but thats not a name its a description. I personally think it needs a name that suggests the power, stability and flexibility that is Zope.
Am I alone in this thought?
No, you are not. My company have almost committed to using ZOPE, but one thing we had to overcome was distrust of the name. Somehow "StoryServer" seems to convey more than "zope". Fortunately, we've overcome the name prejudice. -- --Michael
On Thu, Oct 14, 1999 at 11:23:44PM -0400, Michael Hirsch wrote:
Am I alone in this thought? No, you are not. My company have almost committed to using ZOPE, but one thing we had to overcome was distrust of the name. Somehow "StoryServer" seems to convey more than "zope". Fortunately, we've overcome the name prejudice.
The problem of a world conditioned by marketing... For me the knee-jerk response goes the other way... I distrust advertising to the extent that the flashier and better the name the less I'm tempted to even _look_ at the option. I expect well advertised and marketed products to be useless piles of fluff or to (best case) have been forced to release at least 3 months before they were ready and consequently be bug-ridden and unusable for the forseeable future. Zope is a good name. It's getting pushed by people who use it and have found it useful, not by marketing hype or fake (paid for) reviews. Zope is a much better name than Bobo.
--Michael
-- Evan ~ThunderFoot~ Gibson ~ nihil mutatem, omni deletum ~ May the machines watch over you with loving grace.
Evan Gibson writes:
On Thu, Oct 14, 1999 at 11:23:44PM -0400, Michael Hirsch wrote:
Am I alone in this thought? No, you are not. My company have almost committed to using ZOPE, but one thing we had to overcome was distrust of the name. Somehow "StoryServer" seems to convey more than "zope". Fortunately, we've overcome the name prejudice.
The problem of a world conditioned by marketing...
Oh, I agree. Unfortunately, upper management is more likely to have a management background than an engineering background.
For me the knee-jerk response goes the other way... I distrust advertising to the extent that the flashier and better the name the less I'm tempted to even _look_ at the option. I expect well advertised and marketed products to be useless piles of fluff or to (best case) have been forced to release at least 3 months before they were ready and consequently be bug-ridden and unusable for the forseeable future.
Right. But try talking to your CEO about the difference between beta commercial software and beta free software. In my eperience, beta free software is more robust than released commercial software. Version 1.0 free software seems about as stable as 3rd release commercial software. But it is a difficult case to make to someone who reads glossy brochures (and believes them). -- --Michael
On Thu, 14 Oct 1999, Michael Hirsch wrote:
one thing we had to overcome was distrust of the name. Somehow
In 2-3 years Zope will sound as natural as Apple or Xerox (unless you speak the Cypriot dialect in which case it will always mean lame!) Until that time whenever I am trying to promote Zope to some corporate circles I use DC's Distributed Enterprise Object Platform and from there on I refer to it as Zope. Usually nobody notices (or cares) that Zope is not DEOP but the association (and pronunciation) is close enough to keep everybody happy. And judging from the nonsense I heard during one such visit, next time I am tempted to introduce Zope as 'Centralised Highly Redundant Transactional Object Manager, in short Zope' Pavlos
Pavlos Christoforou wrote:
On Thu, 14 Oct 1999, Michael Hirsch wrote:
one thing we had to overcome was distrust of the name. Somehow
In 2-3 years Zope will sound as natural as Apple or Xerox
I agree. The name has already got a lot of positive press. Let's build on what we have already done. If we were to change the name now, that might send the message that we are suddenly more concerned about marketing than about building an excellent platform.
On Fri, 15 Oct 1999, Jay, Dylan wrote:
I think Z Object Publishing Environment is fine but thats not a name its a description. I personally think it needs a name that suggests the power, stability and flexibility that is Zope. Well, the DC guys have been looking for a good and FREE (in the internic sense) name for some months.
Andreas -- Andreas Kostyrka | andreas@mtg.co.at phone: +43/1/7070750 | phone: +43/676/4091256 MTG Handelsges.m.b.H. | fax: +43/1/7065299 Raiffeisenstr. 16/9 | 2320 Zwoelfaxing AUSTRIA
Andreas Kostyrka wrote:
On Fri, 15 Oct 1999, Jay, Dylan wrote:
I think Z Object Publishing Environment is fine but thats not a name its a description. I personally think it needs a name that suggests the power, stability and flexibility that is Zope. Well, the DC guys have been looking for a good and FREE (in the internic sense) name for some months.
Wait, do you mean that DC is STILL looking, or that they DID look before choosing Zope? I'm familiar with the second scenario, but if they're still looking, I've compiled a list of interesting domain names that are available. However, I think that it would be a mistake to change the name again. Zope has gotten a fair amount of press at this point, and the name is rather unique. For a perspective on what makes a good name, try this article: http://ematter1.fatbrain.com/E3/04/B6/31/5F/8F/11/d3/AA/E9/00/50/04/63/26/C2... For those of you who can't be bothered to download and read the article, it's about how Computer Literacy changed its name to Fatbrain. The gist of the article is that the most important things about a name are it's memorability and distinctiveness. On those grounds, I think 'Zope' wins hands-down. Remember, this is not really about making Zope acceptable to corporate decision makers. That will take care of itself as more successful sites are built with Zope. This is really about winning over developers, and getting them to build their next cool site with Zope. The only way that the Zope name could be improved upon, is if it generated a more emotional response. But it's not too critical, as most products in the appserver space are even worse in this regard, and have all the emotion of a wet rag. At least Zope sounds fresh. Eventually, Zope will be running the site of a company that has a really spectacular IPO. Which is where the recognizability factor comes into play for suit-type people. Cheers, Michael Bernstein.
I think all you need to do is change the pronunciation to "zopey" as in "Penelope". I started pronouncing it that way before I heard that others didn't. I thought it was the name of some Greek goddess I'd never heard of before. I think it's cool. -- $.02 -- Loren
I seem to be the one that rains on a lot of parades but I thought this was the time to bring up something thats been bothering me for awhile. The name ZOPE. In my opinion its not very good. It doesn't convey the sense of an enterprise object oriented web publishing system. It sounds silly. Zope as in Soap. Zope on a Rope. People look at me strange when I say I've been working with Zope. I think Z Object Publishing Environment is fine but thats not a name its a description. I personally think it needs a name that suggests the power, stability and flexibility that is Zope.
Am I alone in this thought?
Perhaps Zope' - zoh-pay - with an accent symbol over the e, as in resume', would do the trick, and play on the cultural cachet of European-sounding names, at least in the U.S. :) At 10:06 AM 10/15/99 -0700, Loren Stafford wrote:
I think all you need to do is change the pronunciation to "zopey" as in "Penelope". I started pronouncing it that way before I heard that others didn't. I thought it was the name of some Greek goddess I'd never heard of before.
I think it's cool.
-- $.02 -- Loren
I seem to be the one that rains on a lot of parades but I thought this was the time to bring up something thats been bothering me for awhile. The name ZOPE. In my opinion its not very good. It doesn't convey the sense of an enterprise object oriented web publishing system. It sounds silly. Zope as in Soap. Zope on a Rope. People look at me strange when I say I've been working with Zope. I think Z Object Publishing Environment is fine but thats not a name its a description. I personally think it needs a name that suggests the power, stability and flexibility that is Zope.
Am I alone in this thought?
participants (10)
-
Andreas Kostyrka -
Evan Gibson -
Jay, Dylan -
Loren Stafford -
Martijn Faassen -
Michael Bernstein -
Michael Hirsch -
Pavlos Christoforou -
Phillip J. Eby -
Terrel Shumway