Michael Simcich <msimcich@accesstools.com> wrote:

Hi Tres -

Everything you've said makes sense. There is no compare between what DC offers and what MS offers. DC says here is the product for free and we'll more or less be available to help you with quirks. MS sells you the product and that's the end of the story. I didn't intent to start howling about DC, they've done something significant for all of us by making Zope available. I *was* very frustrated with the fact that there didn't seem to be any recourse to a dead zope install, and that this didn't seem to be very important to anyone.

...

Don't misread DC -- they _do_ have an interest in supporting Zope on Win2K; what they don't have is the ability to troubleshoot your configuration in the absence of more specific data than you provide, especially given reports from other Win2K users that it "works for them" there. Somebody (Martijn Pieters, I think?) gave you pointers for stepping into the Zope startup process using the Python debugger:

Martijn was kind enough to get me started with the debugger and it was fixed very simply. So they did have the ability to troubleshoot my config to some extent even though I couldn't tell them more than "nothing happens". I was hunting for exactly this sort of pointer - what else can I try if Zope won't turn over? It took me seven days to get that little tip, and a lot of wasted bandwidth on the list (sheesh, four posts on the same issue... but what else could I do?)

You did right, and I think it is a pity that it took the community that long to come to your aid. I know that _I_ misread one of the earlier posts and thought you had resolved your problem, so I'm glad you reposted it. I think I was responding to the "I'm fed up" rant which also showed up this weekend, as much as to your question, when talking about support.

I don't think it's easy for most of the folks here to get how foreign Zope is to someone like myself. With Martijn's help I was able to start up the python debugger and interpret what it reported, but without that first pointer from Martijn I've no idea what to try. I seemed to mostly get advice to the effect that "Well it's Windoze what do you expect?" That... just doesn't help much.

Nope -- I have to use Windows products frequently; I find Zope actually one of the more pleasant things I use there now :) (Delphi and C++ Builder are the other winning tools for me).

The impression I get from having paid attention to this list for a couple of months is that it's composed of a very sophisticated and mature group. I know there has been some talk recently about going off half cocked, but compared to most lists I've had exposure to this list is already way ahead of the game. Hopefully I will find Zope a good fit and will eventually be able to contribute something useful myself.

Ah - what does "Hic sunt draconis" translate to? In context it's clear, but it would be fun to know the literal meaning <g>.

"Here be dragons" -- often seen in the otherwise blank areas of early explorers' maps. :) -- ========================================================= Tres Seaver tseaver@palladion.com 713-523-6582 Palladion Software http://www.palladion.com