that's a mouthful subject :P i've downloaded and installed zope 2.8 b1. wondered whether zclass is still b0rked in zope2.8r1. nothing mentioned in the CHANGES.txt. probably is. created zclasses ok. however instantiating the zclass requires authentication that will never go thru. since zope2.8 comes with five, is there any documentation/tutorials on how to actually use it? i've looked at Five/docs/*txt and FiveDemo*. it seems that i may need to grok (or at least know *something* about) zope3 to actually use five. thanks for any urls/pointers/etc -- http://myzope.kedai.com.my - my-zope org