<rant> This is such a bunch of bullshit. I am so tired of "the answer is out there somewhere, why can't you find it yourself?" being the justification for not helping people who ask reasonable questions. To add insult to injury Asad was being quite courteous (e.g. he went so far as to thank you for your initial response) and you guys just start jumping all over him. Please explain to me why the mailing list should be a solution-of-last-result??? After all, you can find the solution to every question by looking at the Zope source code...ergo, all questions to the mailing list are a waste of time because the person didn't have the time to go picking through the source code? Personally, I am more than happy to help people with questions if I know the answer off the top of my head. ***What is the big deal?!?*** Just because the answer exists somewhere doesn't mean I expect people to spend lots of their time (**which is valuable too by the way**) to go digging it out. Zope (and Plone) are very complicated systems and not all of us hack the source code to Zope on a daily basis so we don't know all the "ins and outs". If you consider it a waste of your time to answer our questions then DON'T, but there is no need to insult us. I don't know if you noticed but they don't exactly have the mindshare or marketshare of other solutions and I don't think that is likely to change when people come here looking for answers and get nothing but grief. I've said it many times before...if you can't be constructive just don't say anything. You are poisoning this community with this nonsense. In my opinion, the level or arrogance and stubbornness to help on the part of some people on this mailing list is really disgraceful and I can't believe others on this list don't feel the same way. </rant> -- Mike
-----Original Message----- From: zope-bounces@zope.org [mailto:zope-bounces@zope.org] On Behalf Of Andreas Jung Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 12:32 PM To: Asad Habib; Andreas Jung Cc: zope@zope.org Subject: Re: [Zope] Zope Session Timeout
--On Freitag, 24. September 2004 12:21 Uhr -0400 Asad Habib <ahabib@engin.umich.edu> wrote:
Ah, so I see how it is. It takes two to pick on one. Well, who has more spare time on their hands, those who post messages to the list asking for help, or those who post messages shunning others that ask for help? Both of you could do us all a favor by keeping your worthless comments to yourself.
It's all about using existing resources e.g. the Zope Book. People have spend a lot of time producing documentation. So don't complain if you don't want to use it.
-aj
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"Tiller, Michael (M.M.)" <mtiller@ford.com> writes (i'm excerpting out of order):
In my opinion, the level or arrogance and stubbornness to help on the part of some people on this mailing list is really disgraceful and I can't believe others on this list don't feel the same way.
I recommend that everyone cool down here. You accuse "arrogance and stubborness" about refusing to help against someone who has provided not just valuable answers, but also much software on which the questioners rely. In this particular case, andreas *had* provided an answer, but it wasn't to the questioners liking! That was when andreas spouted that the questioner should look at the API.
This is such a bunch of bullshit. I am so tired of "the answer is out there somewhere, why can't you find it yourself?" being the
I have to agree that knowing *where* to look for stuff can be hard. Maybe indicating where to look is the extra step andreas could have taken to provide guidance - but the questioner was using the software, presumably they knew where to look for the API.
Please explain to me why the mailing list should be a solution-of-last-result??? After all, you can find the solution to
This is a fundamental issue in programming. It's about "teaching someone to fish, rather than giving them a fish to eat". There is a balance to be struck - questions are not forbidden (hence the list, in the first place!). Jonathon hobbes chimed in, objecting to people using the list as 'solution-of-first-resort' - some evidence of due diligence on the part of the questioner is necessary so that the answerers know the questioners are doing what they can to "learn to fish". I don't follow this group often, so don't know whether this suggestion is necessary, but i would always like to see answers that include pointers to key resources where the answers were found, and "RTFM" responses that give clues about where those resources are. But list-as-first-resort does *not* scale. Ken Manheimer klm@zope.com Just to try to avoid unintended distortion due to picking my excerpts out of order, here's the entire message to which i'm responding: "Tiller, Michael (M.M.)" <mtiller@ford.com>
<rant> This is such a bunch of bullshit. I am so tired of "the answer is out there somewhere, why can't you find it yourself?" being the justification for not helping people who ask reasonable questions. To add insult to injury Asad was being quite courteous (e.g. he went so far as to thank you for your initial response) and you guys just start jumping all over him.
Please explain to me why the mailing list should be a solution-of-last-result??? After all, you can find the solution to every question by looking at the Zope source code...ergo, all questions to the mailing list are a waste of time because the person didn't have the time to go picking through the source code?
Personally, I am more than happy to help people with questions if I know the answer off the top of my head.
***What is the big deal?!?***
Just because the answer exists somewhere doesn't mean I expect people to spend lots of their time (**which is valuable too by the way**) to go digging it out. Zope (and Plone) are very complicated systems and not all of us hack the source code to Zope on a daily basis so we don't know all the "ins and outs". If you consider it a waste of your time to answer our questions then DON'T, but there is no need to insult us.
I don't know if you noticed but they don't exactly have the mindshare or marketshare of other solutions and I don't think that is likely to change when people come here looking for answers and get nothing but grief. I've said it many times before...if you can't be constructive just don't say anything. You are poisoning this community with this nonsense.
In my opinion, the level or arrogance and stubbornness to help on the part of some people on this mailing list is really disgraceful and I can't believe others on this list don't feel the same way. </rant>
Wow... apologies to all. It was never my intent to denigrate, demean or insult. I was attempting to suggest that people who made attempts at solving their problem would probably receive more informed help (because they would be able to say what they tried and what didn't work - ie. error messages, tracebacks etc). I only mentioned this because I believe that this is an excellent list and the quality of the responses (and the posters of those responses) is first rate and I hope that it will stay that way. I whole-heartedly agree with the comment about "teaching someone to fish, rather than giving them a fish to eat". With that in mind I would like to propose that list participants collectively create a thread which provides a list of potential sources of information and methods of finding solutions. As a start... 1) As Dieter often says "Google is your friend". You can just enter key phrases into google for a general search or you can use the syntax: site:www.zope.org followed by your search term to get pages specifically from the zope site (this syntax will work for any web site) 2) Mailing list archives that can be searched: http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Mail/Browse/Threaded/zope-List http://www.dzug.org/mailinglisten/zope-org-zope/ http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=zope 3) Other zope sites http://www.zopelabs.com/ http://www.zopezen.org/ http://www.plone.org/ http://www.my-zope.org/ http://www.zopezone.com/ http://www.zopewiki.org/ZopeWiki http://www.dieter.handshake.de/pyprojects/zope/ 4) Documentation http://www.zope.org/Documentation/Books/ZopeBook/ http://www.plope.com/Books/2_7Edition http://plone.org/documentation/ 5) Python Tips/Tricks - create an external method that uses the python dir command to get information about variables and methods that are available to classes, etc. This is just a quick 'off-the-top-of-my-head' list and I hope that others can flesh it out, so that more fishermen (fisherpersons?) can enjoy the full benefits of a tremendous platform (I'm talking about zope :) Jonathan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ken Manheimer" <klm@zope.com> To: <zope@zope.org> Sent: September 24, 2004 1:47 PM Subject: [Zope] Re: Disgraceful
"Tiller, Michael (M.M.)" <mtiller@ford.com> writes (i'm excerpting out of order):
In my opinion, the level or arrogance and stubbornness to help on the part of some people on this mailing list is really disgraceful and I can't believe others on this list don't feel the same way.
I recommend that everyone cool down here.
You accuse "arrogance and stubborness" about refusing to help against someone who has provided not just valuable answers, but also much software on which the questioners rely. In this particular case, andreas *had* provided an answer, but it wasn't to the questioners liking! That was when andreas spouted that the questioner should look at the API.
This is such a bunch of bullshit. I am so tired of "the answer is out there somewhere, why can't you find it yourself?" being the
I have to agree that knowing *where* to look for stuff can be hard. Maybe indicating where to look is the extra step andreas could have taken to provide guidance - but the questioner was using the software, presumably they knew where to look for the API.
Please explain to me why the mailing list should be a solution-of-last-result??? After all, you can find the solution to
This is a fundamental issue in programming. It's about "teaching someone to fish, rather than giving them a fish to eat". There is a balance to be struck - questions are not forbidden (hence the list, in the first place!). Jonathon hobbes chimed in, objecting to people using the list as 'solution-of-first-resort' - some evidence of due diligence on the part of the questioner is necessary so that the answerers know the questioners are doing what they can to "learn to fish".
I don't follow this group often, so don't know whether this suggestion is necessary, but i would always like to see answers that include pointers to key resources where the answers were found, and "RTFM" responses that give clues about where those resources are. But list-as-first-resort does *not* scale.
Ken Manheimer klm@zope.com
Just to try to avoid unintended distortion due to picking my excerpts out of order, here's the entire message to which i'm responding:
"Tiller, Michael (M.M.)" <mtiller@ford.com>
<rant> This is such a bunch of bullshit. I am so tired of "the answer is out there somewhere, why can't you find it yourself?" being the justification for not helping people who ask reasonable questions. To add insult to injury Asad was being quite courteous (e.g. he went so far as to thank you for your initial response) and you guys just start jumping all over him.
Please explain to me why the mailing list should be a solution-of-last-result??? After all, you can find the solution to every question by looking at the Zope source code...ergo, all questions to the mailing list are a waste of time because the person didn't have the time to go picking through the source code?
Personally, I am more than happy to help people with questions if I know the answer off the top of my head.
***What is the big deal?!?***
Just because the answer exists somewhere doesn't mean I expect people to spend lots of their time (**which is valuable too by the way**) to go digging it out. Zope (and Plone) are very complicated systems and not all of us hack the source code to Zope on a daily basis so we don't know all the "ins and outs". If you consider it a waste of your time to answer our questions then DON'T, but there is no need to insult us.
I don't know if you noticed but they don't exactly have the mindshare or marketshare of other solutions and I don't think that is likely to change when people come here looking for answers and get nothing but grief. I've said it many times before...if you can't be constructive just don't say anything. You are poisoning this community with this nonsense.
In my opinion, the level or arrogance and stubbornness to help on the part of some people on this mailing list is really disgraceful and I can't believe others on this list don't feel the same way. </rant>
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On Fri, Sep 24, 2004 at 01:07:38PM -0400, Tiller, Michael (M.M.) wrote:
<rant> This is such a bunch of bullshit. I am so tired of "the answer is out there somewhere, why can't you find it yourself?" being the justification for not helping people who ask reasonable questions. To add insult to injury Asad was being quite courteous (e.g. he went so far as to thank you for your initial response) and you guys just start jumping all over him.
Please explain to me why the mailing list should be a solution-of-last-result???
It's not. But IMHO posting a perfectly valid solution in 10 minutes, followed by a pointer to well-written documentation, and a hint that the API is well documented in the source code (frequently it's not so this is good to know!)... is a damn good response and I don't think anybody should be faulted for that. In this case I think the wrong guy got jumped on for a general trend of "solve my problem for me" posts. To Asad: I don't think you did anything wrong, but your second post could have maybe been more informative (e.g. what's wrong with the first solution? have you read the Sessions chapter in the online zope book? Have you looked at the relevant parts of the API Reference?) Chill out folks, this is nothing to fight about. -- Paul Winkler http://www.slinkp.com
Paul, I appreciate all the time and effort you have invested in Zope and I also appreciate the investment of other members. However, I don't feel that any member has the right to be rude to another member because of their seniority. In fact, one would expect a senior member to serve as a role model for starters. In the past I have been snubbed by several members for reasons unknown to me(in particular, Jung and Maurer). These two seem to think that they own the group and have insulted me as well as others on numerous occasions. I appreciate their input and the time they have invested in Zope, but does this give them the right to abuse others? Also, on numerous occasions people have made assumptions about what I did or did not do before posting a question to the group. I usually spend a couple of hours trying to diagnose the problem myself before posting it to the group. However, the solution is sometimes not evident. Does this give other members the right to degrade me? This is the point that Mike was trying to make. Thanks for listening Paul. - Asad On Fri, 24 Sep 2004, Paul Winkler wrote:
On Fri, Sep 24, 2004 at 01:07:38PM -0400, Tiller, Michael (M.M.) wrote:
<rant> This is such a bunch of bullshit. I am so tired of "the answer is out there somewhere, why can't you find it yourself?" being the justification for not helping people who ask reasonable questions. To add insult to injury Asad was being quite courteous (e.g. he went so far as to thank you for your initial response) and you guys just start jumping all over him.
Please explain to me why the mailing list should be a solution-of-last-result???
It's not. But IMHO posting a perfectly valid solution in 10 minutes, followed by a pointer to well-written documentation, and a hint that the API is well documented in the source code (frequently it's not so this is good to know!)... is a damn good response and I don't think anybody should be faulted for that.
In this case I think the wrong guy got jumped on for a general trend of "solve my problem for me" posts. To Asad: I don't think you did anything wrong, but your second post could have maybe been more informative (e.g. what's wrong with the first solution? have you read the Sessions chapter in the online zope book? Have you looked at the relevant parts of the API Reference?)
Chill out folks, this is nothing to fight about.
--
Paul Winkler http://www.slinkp.com _______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 18:18:56 -0400, Asad Habib wrote:
[snip] I don't feel that any member has the right to be rude to another member because of their seniority. [snip]
'Read the API' is not an insult. 'Keep your worthless comments to yourself' is an insult.
Also, on numerous occasions people have made assumptions about what I did or did not do before posting a question to the group. I usually spend a couple of hours trying to diagnose the problem myself before posting it to the group. However, the solution is sometimes not evident. Does this give other members the right to degrade me?
Forget about 'usually'. Did you try *this* time? What did you try? How did it fail? None of this information was evident in your question. I suggest you read 'How to ask questions the smart way' as well: http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html -- Michael Bernstein
Asad Habib wrote:
Paul, I appreciate all the time and effort you have invested in Zope and I also appreciate the investment of other members. However, I don't feel that any member has the right to be rude to another member because of their seniority. In fact, one would expect a senior member to serve as a role model for starters.
In the past I have been snubbed by several members for reasons unknown to me(in particular, Jung and Maurer). These two seem to think that they own the group and have insulted me as well as others on numerous occasions. I appreciate their input and the time they have invested in Zope, but does this give them the right to abuse others?
Also, on numerous occasions people have made assumptions about what I did or did not do before posting a question to the group. I usually spend a couple of hours trying to diagnose the problem myself before posting it to the group. However, the solution is sometimes not evident. Does this give other members the right to degrade me?
This is the point that Mike was trying to make. Thanks for listening Paul.
- Asad
On Fri, 24 Sep 2004, Paul Winkler wrote:
On Fri, Sep 24, 2004 at 01:07:38PM -0400, Tiller, Michael (M.M.) wrote:
<rant> This is such a bunch of bullshit. I am so tired of "the answer is out there somewhere, why can't you find it yourself?" being the justification for not helping people who ask reasonable questions. To add insult to injury Asad was being quite courteous (e.g. he went so far as to thank you for your initial response) and you guys just start jumping all over him.
Please explain to me why the mailing list should be a solution-of-last-result???
It's not. But IMHO posting a perfectly valid solution in 10 minutes, followed by a pointer to well-written documentation, and a hint that the API is well documented in the source code (frequently it's not so this is good to know!)... is a damn good response and I don't think anybody should be faulted for that.
In this case I think the wrong guy got jumped on for a general trend of "solve my problem for me" posts. To Asad: I don't think you did anything wrong, but your second post could have maybe been more informative (e.g. what's wrong with the first solution? have you read the Sessions chapter in the online zope book? Have you looked at the relevant parts of the API Reference?)
Chill out folks, this is nothing to fight about.
--
Paul Winkler http://www.slinkp.com _______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
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Hi all I know these discusion not affected to me but you are flooding my mail for nothing :-) ;-) :-P :-* O:-) It's time to work, folks!! Everyone has right to ask anything including stupidity, disgusting and so one but Everyone has right to not ask Sometimes we are lazy because we don't search enough, that's correct. Perhaps would be better if we find some new and better ways of write manuals and search tools. I prefer constructivity (but I know human is very complex animal) In the other way, boys, everyone has a bad day. Respect is very important and: 1.- All you write here is public and time judge us 2.- You are the inquire, relax yourself and be patient with someone how probably save your professional life For that, I propose: LET'S WORK A LITTLE?
my 2 cents: The support on this list awesome. Python and Zope would never have happened without the fantastic work of people who spend much of their lives on the development of great technology and take a lot of time answering questions, even when they are pretty stupid. I would never have been able to accomplish what I did without the help from this list. Thank you! Andre
Asad, Your ego is of no interest to us. ---- Original Message ----- From: "Asad Habib" <ahabib@engin.umich.edu> To: "Paul Winkler" <pw_lists@slinkp.com> Cc: <zope@zope.org> Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 3:18 PM Subject: Re: [Zope] Disgraceful
Paul, I appreciate all the time and effort you have invested in Zope and I also appreciate the investment of other members. However, I don't feel that any member has the right to be rude to another member because of their seniority. In fact, one would expect a senior member to serve as a role model for starters.
In the past I have been snubbed by several members for reasons unknown to me(in particular, Jung and Maurer). These two seem to think that they own the group and have insulted me as well as others on numerous occasions. I appreciate their input and the time they have invested in Zope, but does this give them the right to abuse others?
Also, on numerous occasions people have made assumptions about what I did or did not do before posting a question to the group. I usually spend a couple of hours trying to diagnose the problem myself before posting it to the group. However, the solution is sometimes not evident. Does this give other members the right to degrade me?
This is the point that Mike was trying to make. Thanks for listening Paul.
- Asad
On Fri, 24 Sep 2004, Paul Winkler wrote:
On Fri, Sep 24, 2004 at 01:07:38PM -0400, Tiller, Michael (M.M.) wrote:
<rant> This is such a bunch of bullshit. I am so tired of "the answer is out there somewhere, why can't you find it yourself?" being the justification for not helping people who ask reasonable questions. To add insult to injury Asad was being quite courteous (e.g. he went so far as to thank you for your initial response) and you guys just start jumping all over him.
Please explain to me why the mailing list should be a solution-of-last-result???
It's not. But IMHO posting a perfectly valid solution in 10 minutes, followed by a pointer to well-written documentation, and a hint that the API is well documented in the source code (frequently it's not so this is good to know!)... is a damn good response and I don't think anybody should be faulted for that.
In this case I think the wrong guy got jumped on for a general trend of "solve my problem for me" posts. To Asad: I don't think you did anything wrong, but your second post could have maybe been more informative (e.g. what's wrong with the first solution? have you read the Sessions chapter in the online zope book? Have you looked at the relevant parts of the API Reference?)
Chill out folks, this is nothing to fight about.
--
Paul Winkler http://www.slinkp.com _______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
_______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
--On Freitag, 24. September 2004 18:18 Uhr -0400 Asad Habib <ahabib@engin.umich.edu> wrote:
In the past I have been snubbed by several members for reasons unknown to me(in particular, Jung and Maurer). These two seem to think that they own the group and have insulted me as well as others on numerous occasions. I appreciate their input and the time they have invested in Zope, but does this give them the right to abuse others?
Stop posting such a bullshit.. in this particular case you asked a question and got a solid solution for your problem. Do you expect that people like Dieter, me and many others have nothing better to do than reading documentation for YOU? Please keep in mind that you get a lot of software for free and a lot of support for free BUT there is a certain amount of energy, motivation and time that we are willing to help other people. If you want help *for free* than you should consider to follow some basic rules and perform some basic investigations on your own. Is it hard for you in this particular case to open the Zope Book and to read the Sessions chapter? Since you could write a posting I do assume that you can read. This is a very minor expectation that I have. People complained in the past and in the present about the lack of documentation. People have written documentation. E.g. Chris McDonough spent a lot of hours (of his free time) to maintain the Zope Book. Of course it is your free choice to ignore documentation and to bother people about things that are written down but don't expect to get help from people willing to help if they feel that the person asking question is just too lazy. -aj
Andreas Jung wrote:
--On Freitag, 24. September 2004 18:18 Uhr -0400 Asad Habib <ahabib@engin.umich.edu> wrote:
In the past I have been snubbed by several members for reasons unknown to me(in particular, Jung and Maurer). These two seem to think that they own the group and have insulted me as well as others on numerous occasions. I appreciate their input and the time they have invested in Zope, but does this give them the right to abuse others?
Stop posting such a bullshit.. in this particular case you asked a question and got a solid solution for your problem. Do you expect that people like Dieter, me and many others have nothing better to do than reading documentation for YOU? Please keep in mind that you get a lot of software for free and a lot of support for free BUT there is a certain amount of energy, motivation and time that we are willing to help other people. If you want help *for free* than you should consider to follow some basic rules and perform some basic investigations on your own. Is it hard for you in this particular case to open the Zope Book and to read the Sessions chapter? Since you could write a posting I do assume that you can read. This is a very minor expectation that I have. People complained in the past and in the present about the lack of documentation. People have written documentation. E.g. Chris McDonough spent a lot of hours (of his free time) to maintain the Zope Book. Of course it is your free choice to ignore documentation and to bother people about things that are written down but don't expect to get help from people willing to help if they feel that the person asking question is just too lazy.
-aj
_______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Les say something very very interesting: REAL EXAMPLES In order to finish this futile "conversation" we could thought new ways to improve the Zope Book to: 1.- Liberate Zope Book's writers of a little work (Why not a wiki with writers only editing permission? I supose they have this by now) 2.- Approximate Zope (and Zope Book) to the real life including real examples (good idea Les) More ideas?
--On Samstag, 25. September 2004 19:45 Uhr +0200 Garito <garito@sistes.net> wrote:
Les say something very very interesting: REAL EXAMPLES In order to finish this futile "conversation" we could thought new ways to improve the Zope Book to:
1.- Liberate Zope Book's writers of a little work (Why not a wiki with writers only editing permission? I supose they have this by now) 2.- Approximate Zope (and Zope Book) to the real life including real examples (good idea Les)
The point is that I have heard a lot of people "I amwilling to help" or "I will write something after...."...but nearly zero percent of them have made contributions to the Zope documentation....lots of words but nothing done so far... -aj
Andreas Jung wrote:
--On Samstag, 25. September 2004 19:45 Uhr +0200 Garito <garito@sistes.net> wrote:
Les say something very very interesting: REAL EXAMPLES In order to finish this futile "conversation" we could thought new ways to improve the Zope Book to:
1.- Liberate Zope Book's writers of a little work (Why not a wiki with writers only editing permission? I supose they have this by now) 2.- Approximate Zope (and Zope Book) to the real life including real examples (good idea Les)
The point is that I have heard a lot of people "I amwilling to help" or "I will write something after...."...but nearly zero percent of them have made contributions to the Zope documentation....lots of words but nothing done so far...
-aj
Andreas need more positivity :-) ;-) :-P :-* O:-) Now would be an important moment if we achive a method to help Zope Book writers without more effort We have 2 ways: 1.- Complain 2.- Think Which do you prefer?
Garito wrote:
Andreas Jung wrote:
--On Samstag, 25. September 2004 19:45 Uhr +0200 Garito <garito@sistes.net> wrote:
Les say something very very interesting: REAL EXAMPLES In order to finish this futile "conversation" we could thought new ways to improve the Zope Book to:
1.- Liberate Zope Book's writers of a little work (Why not a wiki with writers only editing permission? I supose they have this by now) 2.- Approximate Zope (and Zope Book) to the real life including real examples (good idea Les)
The point is that I have heard a lot of people "I amwilling to help" or "I will write something after...."...but nearly zero percent of them have made contributions to the Zope documentation....lots of words but nothing done so far...
-aj
Andreas need more positivity :-) ;-) :-P :-* O:-) Now would be an important moment if we achive a method to help Zope Book writers without more effort We have 2 ways:
1.- Complain 2.- Think
Which do you prefer?
3.- Write Sign up to edit one or more chapters of the Zope 2.7 version of the Zope book: http://plope.com/Books/zb_signup Note that even for chapters already spoken for, you could help by providing / pointing out examples (e.g., by trolling throught the "Zope Cookbook", http://www.zopelabs.com/). Tres. -- =============================================================== Tres Seaver tseaver@zope.com Zope Corporation "Zope Dealers" http://www.zope.com
Tres Seaver wrote:
Garito wrote:
Andreas Jung wrote:
--On Samstag, 25. September 2004 19:45 Uhr +0200 Garito <garito@sistes.net> wrote:
Les say something very very interesting: REAL EXAMPLES In order to finish this futile "conversation" we could thought new ways to improve the Zope Book to:
1.- Liberate Zope Book's writers of a little work (Why not a wiki with writers only editing permission? I supose they have this by now) 2.- Approximate Zope (and Zope Book) to the real life including real examples (good idea Les)
The point is that I have heard a lot of people "I amwilling to help" or "I will write something after...."...but nearly zero percent of them have made contributions to the Zope documentation....lots of words but nothing done so far...
-aj
Andreas need more positivity :-) ;-) :-P :-* O:-) Now would be an important moment if we achive a method to help Zope Book writers without more effort We have 2 ways:
1.- Complain 2.- Think
Which do you prefer?
3.- Write
Sign up to edit one or more chapters of the Zope 2.7 version of the Zope book:
http://plope.com/Books/zb_signup
Note that even for chapters already spoken for, you could help by providing / pointing out examples (e.g., by trolling throught the "Zope Cookbook", http://www.zopelabs.com/).
Tres.
I could write some recipe for the Zope CookBook In fact I've write 2 articles for www.hispazope.org: http://www.hispazope.org/Members/Garito/SobrecargargestionWebDAVFTP/view http://www.hispazope.org/Members/Garito/DetectarEntornoEjecucion/view I have only 1,5 problems: 1 .-Language (As you could see here my english is very poor) 0,5 .- Time (As many other) But time is only time If I could write in spanish and someone could transalte it I could colaborate. I could write the conclusions of my questions in the list But the problem wasn't solve (in my opinion). I think we need some kind of service to "auto-publish" the work on the list For example: Instead of use the current list service we could use some kind of Zope product or something like these (it's only an idea) that makes workable the information write on it. Someone of us have been read articles about semantic web. Why not an automatic development FAQ? And these could be only the beginning... we only need to imagine It's only and idea
Hi Michael, Tiller, Michael (M.M.) wrote:
This is such a bunch of bullshit. I am so tired of "the answer is out there somewhere, why can't you find it yourself?" being the justification for not helping people who ask reasonable questions. To add insult to injury Asad was being quite courteous (e.g. he went so far as to thank you for your initial response) and you guys just start jumping all over him. I think that you have to look for an answer, then if you don't find anything, you should explain this on your post.
Please explain to me why the mailing list should be a solution-of-last-result??? After all, you can find the solution to every question by looking at the Zope source code...ergo, all questions to the mailing list are a waste of time because the person didn't have the time to go picking through the source code?
Personally, I am more than happy to help people with questions if I know the answer off the top of my head. Yes, I feel the same when I can help somebody else, but I don't agree with your conception of a mailing list. Concerning to the source code, I agree that it is difficult for newies to find there what they are looking for. However, there are lots of questions that aren't related to the source code itself and that are already answered in the documentation. At least, people should take time to read it.
***What is the big deal?!?***
Just because the answer exists somewhere doesn't mean I expect people to spend lots of their time (**which is valuable too by the way**) to go digging it out. Zope (and Plone) are very complicated systems and not all of us hack the source code to Zope on a daily basis so we don't know all the "ins and outs". If you consider it a waste of your time to answer our questions then DON'T, but there is no need to insult us. No offense intended, but the thing is that if every one posts every question he/she has without searching first, then it will be difficult for the people looking at the archives to find an answer and, on the other hand, the server hosting the list will need more space to store it. With this I'm not saying that Asad didn't search the archives. Perhaps he did and couldn't find what he was looking for. Or perhaps he used the wrong keywords, it has also happened to me ;-)
I don't know if you noticed but they don't exactly have the mindshare or marketshare of other solutions and I don't think that is likely to change when people come here looking for answers and get nothing but grief. I've said it many times before...if you can't be constructive just don't say anything. You are poisoning this community with this nonsense.
In my opinion, the level or arrogance and stubbornness to help on the part of some people on this mailing list is really disgraceful and I can't believe others on this list don't feel the same way. I think that when one posts by the first time on a mailing list, generally makes mistakes (ie: post a FAQ, I did it too), then the people tell you that you have to search first, and you think that they are rude and don't want to help you. But with the time you see that they just want to have a clean resource that everybody can consult efficiently. Obiously, there are always arrogant people, but you can't do anything against that. But generally, and on this case too, I think that the people here aren't arrogant and they are tolerant. You should visit other mailing lists and see the flame wars and the offensive language used there.
Regards, Josef
On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 13:07:38 -0400, Tiller, Michael (M.M.) wrote:
Just because the answer exists somewhere doesn't mean I expect people to spend lots of their time (**which is valuable too by the way**) to go digging it out. Zope (and Plone) are very complicated systems and not all of us hack the source code to Zope on a daily basis so we don't know all the "ins and outs". If you consider it a waste of your time to answer our questions then DON'T, but there is no need to insult us.
First, 'Read the API' is *not* insulting. 'RTFM' or 'STFW' would only be mildly insulting under the circumstances. If the answer not only exists somewhere, but is also trivially findable, then encouraging a bit more self sufficiency is in everyone's best interest, including the questioner's. The Zope Book chapter on sessions is currently the sixth result here: http://www.google.com/search?q=zope+sessions
I don't know if you noticed but they don't exactly have the mindshare or marketshare of other solutions and I don't think that is likely to change when people come here looking for answers and get nothing but grief. I've said it many times before...if you can't be constructive just don't say anything. You are poisoning this community with this nonsense.
Andreas has been contributing software and documentation as well as answering questions publicly on this and other lists for *years*. I think this is very constructive behavior, serves as an exemplary model for community participation, and I object to your characterization. Encouraging people to clutter up the list with trivial questions serves *no-one* except the terminally lazy who happen to be currently subscribed to the list and have the same exact problem, as the next such person to subscribe won't be bothered to search the web or the list archives for the answer either. I think you need to read 'How to ask questions the smart way': http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html - Michael Bernstein
Tiller, Michael (M.M.) wrote at 2004-9-24 13:07 -0400:
... Personally, I am more than happy to help people with questions if I know the answer off the top of my head.
***What is the big deal?!?***
I get about 200 to 400 messages per day and answer about 20 to 40. You hopefully understand how few time I have for each of them. The few time I have means that I *NEVER* search for others. I never provide precise URLs (because they are not in the top of my head ;-) ). I expect each person to make significant efforts to solve their own problem. I only give hints how to find the solution. I do not see it as my task to solve the problem myself. I have the feeling that most people can live with these restrictions. Those that cannot: bad luck for them... -- Dieter
On Fri, Sep 24, 2004 at 01:07:38PM -0400, Tiller, Michael (M.M.) wrote:
<rant> This is such a bunch of bullshit. I am so tired of "the answer is out there somewhere, why can't you find it yourself?" being the justification for not helping people who ask reasonable questions.
I very much sympathise with your predicament having suffered similar 'advice' in the past. Some people on this list go out of their way to be helpful, others try to make you feel like a dunce, and to be quite honest, you already feel like a dunce when you are new to something, especially something as complex and and secret as Zope, you don't need people giving unhelpful advice like RTFM. I can't help feeling that Zope needs a newbies list for people just starting out. It's just such a difficult product to get your head around and this is the only place to seek help, but the range of help sought may be from the plain dumb to the mostly highly complex, so I can see that the experts may get annoyed with seeing the same dumb questions popping up over and over again. After several attempts at getting started with Zope over a number of months, I'm still far from having a good overview of how it hangs together. The hostility of some responses makes me extremely reluctant to ask for help, which is a pity since I've rarely encountered this on any other list I've been on over the last ten years. -- John
I can't help feeling that Zope needs a newbies list for people just starting out. It's just such a difficult product to get your head around and this is the only place to seek help, but the range of help sought may be from the plain dumb to the mostly highly complex, so I can see that the experts may get annoyed with seeing the same dumb questions popping up over and over again.
This newbie list issue has come up again and again. Interestingly, the people who are repeatedly attacked as newbie unfriendly (Dieter Maurer, Andreas Jung and others) are the ones who spend a large time answering those newbie requests. Now my question is: Who among the knowledgeable people do you think will participate in the newbies list if the newbies seem to view surveying of existing docs as a huge imposition? jens
On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 23:25:11 +0100, John Poltorak wrote:
Some people on this list go out of their way to be helpful, others try to make you feel like a dunce, and to be quite honest, you already feel like a dunce when you are new to something, especially something as complex and and secret as Zope, you don't need people giving unhelpful advice like RTFM.
On one level, RTFM is manifestly unhelpful, as it doesn't answer your question. On another level, RTFM is *very* helpful, as the person telling you that has some reason to beleive that you in fact didn't RTFM (probably because you would have said so if you had), and so is trying to get you to improve your problem solving skills. This is preferable to simply being ignored, IMO. Because, after all, perhaps you really didn't know that there was a FMTR. ;-) BTW, I've noticed over the years that when someone gets an RTFM answer, it is extremely rare for them to reply that they had already done so. I was actually one of those rare cases, and after I explained why TFM in question was an inadequate resource for me, it was improved. What I should have done was include that piece of information in my original question, which would have kept the S/N higher.
After several attempts at getting started with Zope over a number of months, I'm still far from having a good overview of how it hangs together. The hostility of some responses makes me extremely reluctant to ask for help [snip].
No need to be apprehensive, just follow these guidelines, and you'll be fine: http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html It comes down to a good-faith demonstration that you treat other people's time as valuable. -- Michael Bernstein
John Poltorak wrote at 2004-9-25 23:25 +0100:
... so I can see that the experts may get annoyed with seeing the same dumb questions popping up over and over again.
Usually, answers to such questions are in the mailing list archives. They can often be quite easily located with a Google search (include "site:lists.zope.org" to restrict hits to Zope's mailing list). In this way, you can get answers for many of your questions without asking ;-) When you have read the Zope Book carefully and googled the mailing lists, you can ask remaining questions without fear. You may not get the complete solution but usually you will get some useful hints to find a solution yourself. -- Dieter
The best ways to search the zope lists are with google or with gmane.org. You can use gmane's web search or best of all, you can point a newsreader like thunderbird at the gmane newsgroup, download all message headers and use thunderbird's built-in search. Pre-configured search forms and tips are collected at this easy-to-remember url: http://zopewiki.org/lists If you find better ways to search the lists, please update that page.
Kept my silence long enough... I stumble into problems with zope almost every single day. I don't post into this mailing list and instead try my best searching the net for an answer, sometimes I find it oftentimes I don't. BUT I DONT EXPECT PEOPLE to behave like me and I never will. Poeple are NOT LIKE YOU. Just because your way of finding an answer involves browsing the source means everyone should do the same (or even remotely similar to it). At the very least, think about this: people have different ways of understanding things. Has it ever occurred to you why not everyone is coding in Assembly? Some people just need more help than the other person. THINK ABOUT IT PEOPLE. With that, I've got some comments for some of you: M. Tiller: What took you so long to make this post??? M. Bernstein.. RTFM is *mildly* insulting?? Since when did cussing become mild? Andreas Jung: YOU are expecting too much. And you're taking it too personal. Nobody is forcing you to help "people who are just too lazy". - Kiko Tiller, Michael (M.M.) wrote:
<rant> This is such a bunch of bullshit. I am so tired of "the answer is out there somewhere, why can't you find it yourself?" being the justification for not helping people who ask reasonable questions. To add insult to injury Asad was being quite courteous (e.g. he went so far as to thank you for your initial response) and you guys just start jumping all over him.
Please explain to me why the mailing list should be a solution-of-last-result??? After all, you can find the solution to every question by looking at the Zope source code...ergo, all questions to the mailing list are a waste of time because the person didn't have the time to go picking through the source code?
Personally, I am more than happy to help people with questions if I know the answer off the top of my head.
***What is the big deal?!?***
Just because the answer exists somewhere doesn't mean I expect people to spend lots of their time (**which is valuable too by the way**) to go digging it out. Zope (and Plone) are very complicated systems and not all of us hack the source code to Zope on a daily basis so we don't know all the "ins and outs". If you consider it a waste of your time to answer our questions then DON'T, but there is no need to insult us.
I don't know if you noticed but they don't exactly have the mindshare or marketshare of other solutions and I don't think that is likely to change when people come here looking for answers and get nothing but grief. I've said it many times before...if you can't be constructive just don't say anything. You are poisoning this community with this nonsense.
In my opinion, the level or arrogance and stubbornness to help on the part of some people on this mailing list is really disgraceful and I can't believe others on this list don't feel the same way. </rant>
-- Mike
-----Original Message----- From: zope-bounces@zope.org [mailto:zope-bounces@zope.org] On Behalf
Of
Andreas Jung Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 12:32 PM To: Asad Habib; Andreas Jung Cc: zope@zope.org Subject: Re: [Zope] Zope Session Timeout
--On Freitag, 24. September 2004 12:21 Uhr -0400 Asad Habib <ahabib@engin.umich.edu> wrote:
Ah, so I see how it is. It takes two to pick on one. Well, who has
more
spare time on their hands, those who post messages to the list
asking
for
help, or those who post messages shunning others that ask for help?
Both
of you could do us all a favor by keeping your worthless comments to yourself.
It's all about using existing resources e.g. the Zope Book. People
have
spend a lot of time producing documentation. So don't complain if you don't
want
to use it.
-aj
participants (17)
-
Andre Meyer -
Andreas Jung -
Asad Habib -
David Hassalevris -
Dieter Maurer -
Francis Nepomuceno -
Garito -
Jens Vagelpohl -
John Poltorak -
Jonathan Hobbs -
Josef Meile -
Ken Manheimer -
Michael R. Bernstein -
Paul Winkler -
Simon Michael -
Tiller, Michael (M.M.) -
Tres Seaver