Hi! While browsing the Web, just found Yet Another Web Application Development Platform. Now it is SmartWorker, and it is based on Perl: http://www.smartworker.org/ License will change in near future for (I think) more open. Web Developmnet Platforms? Aren't there a little too many of them? :) Oleg. ---- Oleg Broytmann Foundation for Effective Policies phd@phd.russ.ru Programmers don't die, they just GOSUB without RETURN.
[Oleg Broytmann, on Tue, 26 Oct 1999]: :: Web Developmnet Platforms? Aren't there a little too many of them? :) Perhaps. But it would be foolish to believe we've even begun to see the explosion of offerings in this category. Just this morning, Marc Andreesen announced the launch of his new startup, Loudcloud, addressed at providing enterprise technologies for getting business logic on the web. Saturday, a new e-group was formed to develop an open source XML-XSL server-side replacement for RDBMS/OODBMS solutions (http://www.egroups.com/group/xml-server/). IONA just announced a new suite of applications which are entirely standards-based -- CORBA, EJB, Java2, Enterprise Edition, XML, SOAP, HTTP (http://www.iona-portal.com). This one is particularly clever, simply because Enterprise IT managers, as a class, tend to be very conservative. They gravitate to standards-based solutions, since these tend to be "job-preserving" for them. I'd expect to see more solutions built on this model. Unquestionably, Zope has the right underpinnings to allow it to evolve to accommodate just about anything the future might throw at it. However, I think it is time to give some thought to repositioning Zope from a strictly marketing perspective. Trout and Ries wrote a marketing classic, _Positioning, Battle for the Mind_, about this subject. Simply put, when a product category gets crowded, marketers need clear communication of product positioning to gain mind share. No marketer can hope to be all things to all people. No marketer can hope to battle Microsoft and IBM on the "everything in one box" turf. Every corporation in the world with any foresight is now formulating its strategy for getting its business on the Internet. Within a year, most of them will have chosen a course. The majority of them will allow themselves to get seduced into a lockin platform environment, of the Allaire, Vignette variety. Why? Because these platforms have market share, deployable marketing strategies, trained business development teams, large established clients they can point to, slick documentation and aftermarket support. Like it or not, these are the ingredients that buyers look for when they make a purchasing decision that their job security hangs on. Where does Zope fall down in this mix? Primarily in providing clear positioning to prospective new users. Of course, Zope users know that these other users will probably come to regret their choice down the road when the platform runs out of steam, but by then they'll also likely put up with any sort of delay and kludge from their platform providers, just because of the pain of making a switch. Microsoft and Oracle have both profited from this kind of inertia. I'd like to suggest we should all, as a community, take a fresh look at the front door on the Zope web site and suggest improvements to make sure that new prospective users can get an *immediate* grasp of Zope's unique "selling" propositions.
Patrick Phalen wrote:
Every corporation in the world with any foresight is now formulating its strategy for getting its business on the Internet. Within a year, most of them will have chosen a course. The majority of them will allow themselves to get seduced into a lockin platform environment, of the Allaire, Vignette variety. Why? Because these platforms have market
I spend all my time now talking to people that have looked at Vignette et al. and are eager to do business with us. The reason is simple: they'd rather be in control than be controlled. But at the same time I realize that these folks represent the highly-enlightened minority. And I do fear mightily for what you discuss in this email. Thus you've successfully flushed me out of seclusion. :^)
share, deployable marketing strategies, trained business development teams, large established clients they can point to, slick documentation and aftermarket support. Like it or not, these are the ingredients that buyers look for when they make a purchasing decision that their job security hangs on. Where does Zope fall down in this mix? Primarily in providing clear positioning to prospective new users.
No kidding. Unfortunately there isn't a clear answer. I'm certainly open to suggestions.
Of course, Zope users know that these other users will probably come to
Ironically if you did a survey of Zope users, most would probably say the same tale of woe. "I found out about Zope, downloaded it, worked like hell to understand it, then the light bulb turned on."
regret their choice down the road when the platform runs out of steam, but by then they'll also likely put up with any sort of delay and kludge from their platform providers, just because of the pain of making a switch. Microsoft and Oracle have both profited from this kind of inertia.
I'd like to suggest we should all, as a community, take a fresh look at the front door on the Zope web site and suggest improvements to make sure that new prospective users can get an *immediate* grasp of Zope's unique "selling" propositions.
This is a very, very important thread to me. I'm looking for two things: o What questions should the Zope.org home page, and pages one click away, answer? o What are some effective ways to answer those questions? --Paul
Of course, Zope users know that these other users will probably come to
Ironically if you did a survey of Zope users, most would probably say the same tale of woe. "I found out about Zope, downloaded it, worked like hell to understand it, then the light bulb turned on."
I was just thinking on this point maybe the default install you should contain a lot more examples which people can view and change. Personally I find the easiest way to learn things is to take something someone else has done then rip bits out of it to get my thing to work (sounds like cheating butI don't think it is). If it was possible to have two distribution (I know, I know more maintenance work). One which is basically the same as now and then a second one which contains a demo site, with lots of examples on all aspects of zope. Right through from the simplest <dtml-var foo> to ZClasses and full blown python products (which zope already ships with a few of and provide _me_ with lots of help when writing new products). I guess this would be a lot of work to organise, compiling the many examples which are littered through various how-tos, tips, documentation and e-mail threads. Now I know people are probably going to say well the code is already there people can just go use that. I know this and the determined person will probably go and find these examples (As most of the people on this list have already done). However if it is easier to get at these examples the light bulb might just turn on a bit quicker for some people. Benno
On Wed, 27 Oct 1999, Paul Everitt wrote:
This is a very, very important thread to me. I'm looking for two things:
o What questions should the Zope.org home page, and pages one click away, answer?
o What are some effective ways to answer those questions?
Currently Zope.org oriented primarily toward Zope developers. If you want to restructure the site to attract business eyes, I think the following questions are important: Q1. Frontdoor: What is Zope, how it can improve your business, why opensource platform better suites your needs. Q2. Frontdoor: What major players are already employed Zope. Q3. Frontdor: Zope news. Not developers news, but news in general: new zope-powered sites, articles about Zope in Big Magazines, etc. Short. Also additional page(s) with more details, and past news. Q4. Zope status: How to download, how and what to buy, quality of documentation, commercial products and support. Q5. Zope status: Latest and stable version, precompiled binaries for as many platforms as possible (not only because it is good by itself, but to attract managers and their developers). Q6. Developer resources: entry-level documentation ("I just downloaded precompiled tarball; what next?"), deep documentation, HOWTOs, list of available components. And some parts of answer for Q1: <B>Zope</B> is <small>free, open-source</small> component-based object-oriented <B>Web application platform</B>. Zope can improve your business by allowing you to develop your Web applications easily, with rights tools. Zope is free, thus making your applications cheaper. Zope is open-sourced, thus allowing your developers to understand every aspect of its internals. Zope conforms to standards. Zope talks HTTP/FTP/WebDAV/FastCGI/etc protocols. Oleg. ---- Oleg Broytmann Foundation for Effective Policies phd@phd.russ.ru Programmers don't die, they just GOSUB without RETURN.
As an advertising dude I would like to make a few suggestions: A product can be described via 3 parameters Features, Solutions and Values. 1) Features What can the product actually do. What is it's technical limits. It's possibilities. Pure concrete data about the product. Technical meassurements is in order here. 2) Solutions What is it a solution to. Which problems does it solve for the customers. 3) Values This is what makes a brand. The core values of the product. It's ethics. It's etheric values. Those values which cannot be easily quantified. (For eksample Volvo don't sell cars with airbags or seat belts or whatever. They sell the worlds safest cars! If you try to sell ar car with an airbag you are only ahead in the game as long as no other car has airbags. If you sell the worlds safest cars you will always be ahead, and the customers will get that impression of the brand.) Another interresting parameter is the USP (Unique Selling Point). What is it that distingusihes this product from all other products. Shooting from the hips, here are some of the information that should be on the zope site: 1) It's an advanced webserver. It can build very advanced websites. You don't start from scratch everytime you build a new website. You can reuse code much more easily than with other webservers. It's open source It's easily extendible through Python You can easily use legacy databases It's fast (fast enough?) It's based on Python which is fast and easy. It's much more productive than (any language here) It is based on the Medusa webserver which is also very fast. 2) For managers: With zope you can deliver on time and on budget easylier than with other products because... For Technicians: With Zope each person can concentrate on what they do best. Programmers program. Designers does design. 3) It will never be obsolete, because it's open source. It's better to share the drudge of making the framework for a very configurable webplatform/application server with other companies around the world because you share the work but gets alll of the benefits. Then you can focus on added value. Well... the rest of you on this list can probably put in some good ideas under the 3 parameters. Regards ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Max M Rasmussen, New Media Director http://www.normik.dk Denmark e-mail mailto:maxm@normik.dk
Paul Everitt wrote:
This is a very, very important thread to me. I'm looking for two things:
o What questions should the Zope.org home page, and pages one click away, answer?
Well... I first heard about Zope because of Technocrat.net. I heard Bruce talk about how he liked Python better than Perl, which told me nothing, frankly. Then I went to the old Zope site, and it sorta blathered on about object oriented things (I'm referring to the Zope Features, which is still on the new site), which left me with the impression that zope was buzzword compliant, but that's about it. I went off for a while, and kept doing what I always did (hand-coded HTML with cgi scripts thrown in.) Then I started looking about for something to handle a big project I was bidding for. I had practically decided on PHP3, when I ran across the review of zope by Brian Lloyd at devshed: http://www.devshed.com/Server_Side/Zope/Intro/ (i just discovered it is linked from the zope info page) Which finally got to the point... on the first page is a list of _things_zope_can_do. This was enough to sell me on the whole notion. But what I really want when I'm making decisions is things I can do with zope. What sold me on PHP in the first place was the webmonkey tutorials- Which talked about the neat things- dynamic image generation and threaded discussion were important in my book. http://www.hotwired.com/webmonkey/databases/tutorials/tutorial4.html
o What are some effective ways to answer those questions?
Well, you'll note that on the PHP introduction, you're making php pages by about the 5th line. Things like Squishdot and KM|Net news should get higher billing than being buried on the products page. People want to see what they can do with Zope, and what the community is doing. I'm sure you'll push the ever-elusive Portal Toolkit when it arrives, and that should happen too. Make that spotlight change focus! I'm sure digital garage is cool, but they've been up there for months now, even across the site change. There's got to be other people making Zope sites. Give aquisition a higher billing- it's the feature that anybody would start using immediately, it increases productivity hugely, and it's different from any other appserver (that I know of). Basically, a 10 cool things you can do with Zope would be great. Whenever I'm looking for a tool, I already more or less know what I want to do. All Zope has to do is let me know it can do it. -- Ethan "mindlace" Fremen you cannot abdicate responsibility for your ideology.
Ironically if you did a survey of Zope users, most would probably say the same tale of woe. "I found out about Zope, downloaded it, worked like hell to understand it, then the light bulb turned on."
Quite so, but not exactly stimulating to start with is it?
o What questions should the Zope.org home page, and pages one click away, answer?
o What are some effective ways to answer those questions?
1. What can I do with Zope. Present a quick tour, preferably in a slick slideshow. This should show of some of the 'what can I do with it' stuff, but present it from the more technical features point of view that make Zope outstanding. THe point with the technical features is that they are just busswords until you show what they mean (I know, a slideshow is still fake, but at least it gives an impression). And anyway a story told from a concept is more convincing. Outline the highlights of the tour in a static presentation (for the impatient or those with slow connections) 2. Make it attractive and easy for people to get started: - Put downloading _prominently_ on the opening page. - Prepare a 'beginners download'. This should include documentation, preferably a grounds up tutorial. Ideally this beginners download should come with an example database with a builtin interactive tutorial. The tutorial should be in Zope, and the described examples shoould be observable right away. This would be a Quickstart on steroids (an example is Macro Media Authorware that has a help system with examples and the examples can be adapted and included right away in your own product) I know, a lot of work, but that was not question, or was it? Just my two cents Rik
On Wed, 27 Oct 1999, Paul Everitt wrote:
o What are some effective ways to answer those questions?
Set up a server and load it with Zope and all its cute available products. Design a cute *simple* site that exercises most of these features and let visitors create temporary accounts, which on creation Zope sets up a copy of this simple site. Then they can actually play around by modifying the existing DTML and have instant gratification. No downloading, no installing. They could even configure the DA's to point to their own oracle servers for testing! The tutorial could then simply guide them through changes of this simple site, seeing the results as they go. IMO Zope has some unique features which allow it to be advertised in a unique way :-) Pavlos
Pavlos, have a look at http://d031.ml.uwcm.ac.uk/z/zGold -----Original Message----- From: zope-admin@zope.org [mailto:zope-admin@zope.org]On Behalf Of Pavlos Christoforou Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 1999 4:03 PM To: Paul Everitt Cc: Patrick Phalen; zope@zope.org Subject: Re: [Zope] Front door on the Zope web site (Was Re: [Zope] SmartWorker) On Wed, 27 Oct 1999, Paul Everitt wrote:
o What are some effective ways to answer those questions?
Set up a server and load it with Zope and all its cute available products. Design a cute *simple* site that exercises most of these features and let visitors create temporary accounts, which on creation Zope sets up a copy of this simple site. Then they can actually play around by modifying the existing DTML and have instant gratification. No downloading, no installing. They could even configure the DA's to point to their own oracle servers for testing! The tutorial could then simply guide them through changes of this simple site, seeing the results as they go. IMO Zope has some unique features which allow it to be advertised in a unique way :-) Pavlos _______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://www.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope (Related lists - please, no cross posts or HTML encoding! To receive general Zope announcements, see: http://www.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce For developer-specific issues, zope-dev@zope.org - http://www.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
On Wed, 27 Oct 1999, Phil Harris wrote:
Pavlos, have a look at http://d031.ml.uwcm.ac.uk/z/zGold
Excellent! Lately I have been skipping postings on the Zope list and I must have missed it. In principle one can package the whole ZGold site and each new user gets a full copy of ZGold which he can customize as much as he wants. He could actually see the full implementation of ZGold and modify it right through the web. It will increase memory and server requirements but with current prices is not such a big problem. Good job! Pavlos
Glad you like it. Just to sort of put it into perspective, the site was 'knocked up' over a couple/3 days and most of that time was spent on doing the graphics, cos there aint no way I'm a graphic designer ;¬) People seem to be impressed with zGold, myself I don't see much to it, probably cos it took next to no time to knock up. I hope it can be of some use to other less zenified people out there. See ya Phil phil@WigWamWeb.net
-----Original Message----- From: zope-admin@zope.org [mailto:zope-admin@zope.org]On Behalf Of Pavlos Christoforou Sent: 27 October 1999 17:14 To: Phil Harris Cc: zope@zope.org Subject: RE: [Zope] Front door on the Zope web site (Was Re: [Zope] SmartWorker)
On Wed, 27 Oct 1999, Phil Harris wrote:
Pavlos, have a look at http://d031.ml.uwcm.ac.uk/z/zGold
Excellent! Lately I have been skipping postings on the Zope list and I must have missed it.
In principle one can package the whole ZGold site and each new user gets a full copy of ZGold which he can customize as much as he wants. He could actually see the full implementation of ZGold and modify it right through the web. It will increase memory and server requirements but with current prices is not such a big problem.
Good job!
Pavlos
_______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://www.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope
(Related lists - please, no cross posts or HTML encoding!
To receive general Zope announcements, see: http://www.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce
For developer-specific issues, zope-dev@zope.org - http://www.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
hi paul & everybody else, i suppose one good way to get some improvements to the zope site for "unenlightened" people (meaning those who do not know what it is as opposed to those who do but are grappling with the Zope Zen) is to look at how you yourself approach a website for a product you need information on. a few days ago i found myself trying to find out what exactly sapphire/web is and how it compares to zope. the usual first step is to look for a link on the frontpage saying "Overview" or "What is <product x>?" or "Features", something along those lines. what this link points to is something that is not geared for the techie, it's more like an executive summary. some marketing fluff allowed. ideally this document should give some quick comparisons to other products, which makes it even easier to understand what this item is about. one major point mentioned in this "executive summary" should be what paul hears other industry people talk about when they explain why they are looking at zope now after coming from vignette et al. the control issue. and of course all the other technical niceties that the developers know about, but not joe shmoe, CIO at XYZ corp. one gripe i have with DC's own website at www.digicool.com is the fact that they don't even have a page devoted to their backbone product, just links to www.zope.org, which is more suitable for tinkerers and developers but not for management types evaluating possible alternatives. it needs to contain a similar "executive summary" as the one zope.org should have, with added information about what DC can do using zope. my $.02 :) jens Jens Vagelpohl Systems Administrator Washtenaw Development Council
participants (10)
-
Ben Leslie -
Ethan Fremen -
Jens Vagelpohl -
Max M -
Oleg Broytmann -
Patrick Phalen -
Paul Everitt -
Pavlos Christoforou -
Phil Harris -
Rik Hoekstra