Re: [Zope] Re: Line Wrap and the Zope Community?
Simon Michael wrote:
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2. Not to mention VISUAL ALACRITY! Where's the color, the captivating use of fonts, eye catching graphic highlights, nicely styled paragraphs, hypertext references, perhaps even an animated image or two?... Right, right... it's 1.1 CMF... as if THAT'S AN EXCUSE?
And get this... THIS IS CLASSIC... Scroll down to Table 05.01 for a demonstration on just what it takes to modify a CMF color... Need I say more?
If it were 1995 I would expect this, but the world has moved on.
What... it's the author's responsibility? Go start MS Word, load any one of their templates, type "I am just a data source" and press PRINT! Does this exercise light any bulbs???
If _I_ wrote Zope... I would be sending the above author MY APOLOGIES for what I've done to their work - how many of YOU reading this page would feel either PRIDE in the presentation or would be willing to BLAME ITS AUTHOR!?!
This was sent to me privately: "the issue you are talking about has _nothing_ to do with zope".
What? Nothing to do with Zope? My apologies then... Let's just blame the user, the author, very convenient, very helpful, and very bound to improve Zope as a Web Publishing Platform.
Did I send this above sentence privately? Sorry, it should go to the list. Again, this has really really nothing to do with zope. The culprit on the above page are long sentences in a <pre> tag: PRE>Line 9 The form action has to be changed to cv_metadata_edit to call the correct DTML Method. Line 18 The link to the full metadata edit form has to be modified for the new DTML Method full_cv_metadata_edit_form. Line 32 The Description field is now called Introductory Self-Description </PRE> See what I mean? I can do that in plain html, perl, php, BEA weblogic, Domino, whatever. Yes, you are right that the html on that page is not perfect, but to change that one would not patch zope. html specs change, browser implementations change, people want to use zope to serve xml/wap etc.. Repeat with me: We don't want an application/content server that prevents us from writing stupid (wrong) html (or structured text, in that case). If I want to do an unwrappable line which is 5000 chars long, zope better gets out of my way. You could as well blame http or the tcp/ip-protocol for the look of that page. I have the feeling that you don't really see what zope is about. I would not call it content management server or web publishing server in a strict sense. It's more like a plattform which enables people to build such a server - tailored to ones needs. Again, this belongs to zope-web, and I guess when you make a nice cmf skin for the coming zope-server it might be considered to use that as an option. cheers, oliver
On Thu, Nov 22, 2001 at 07:58:42PM +0100, Oliver Bleutgen wrote: (snip)
Repeat with me: We don't want an application/content server that prevents us from writing stupid (wrong) html (or structured text, in that case).
If I want to do an unwrappable line which is 5000 chars long, zope better gets out of my way. (snip)
I agree. If an author writes a page in DTML or ZPT, they need to know what they're doing, and Zope should not try to second-guess the author's intentions. OTOH, Structured Text *should* try to provide nicely readable output on most browsers without the author needing to know anything about web design. If we find any examples of Structured Text pages with these long lines, it's worth considering what if anything can be done to fix it. -- paul winkler home: http://www.slinkp.com music: http://www.reacharms.com calendars: http://www.calendargalaxy.com
Oliver: I agree with you. But first, your email attributes (accuses? :-) Simon Michael of authoring the content you are responding to (see your message). Is that a software issue or did the user have to break a template designed to promote Visual Alacrity? (This is humor... don't forget to smile :-)
Again, this has really really nothing to do with zope. The culprit on the above page are long sentences in a <pre> tag:
I understand that, I agree... Zope should allow a USER all the rope they want, but should Zope be hanging every person that walks by? Let me exit this topic with a trip through a standard paper based Publisher: 1. Select an appropriate Template 2. Import/generate data. 3. Tag paragraphs with appropriate styles (usually graphically demonstrated, always matched to the template). 3b? Play with the addition of visual teasers from the menus. 4. Press Print Preview (did I forget Press Spell check?) 5. Correct problems, repeat step 4. 6. Print ... and, if I want, I can subvert the template to produce a TOTALLY REPULSIVE product! But I would have to do that actively, NOT PASSIVELY! Let Zope be powerful, but let TEMPLATES do their JOB! If Zope has to be enhanced to ENFORCE a template, or if a debugger / checker must exist to Demonstrate the results of a template... Wouldn't that be a responsible enhancement / addition to Zope? Oliver. I agree with you, But can't Zope do both, let the knowledgeable user hang themselves, but protect, or at least lend assistance to those who are not so savvy? I'm not trying to be irritating. I just think there is a core of irresponsibly in the Zope mind set. I remember when a 1.0 release implied a product that had some polish... meanwhile I'm chasing hex color codes in 1.1 CMF to make a page presentable. How can that behavior be called responsible in a "One Point Anything" product who's PRIMARY PURPOSE is to present VISUAL INFORMATION? *** H E L L O *** ??? Oliver may correctly identify this as a Zope-web issue but I've developed sufficient software AND hardware products in my past to know that what "_I_" am speaking to is basic to the product design and _NOT_ it's implementation. OK, I'm exhausted with this, any point I have tried to share has either reached its audience or is causing unintended irritation to good people. I apologize for this. Thank you for letting me air my personal opinions and for your polite and constructive responses. -Ron
participants (3)
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Oliver Bleutgen -
Paul Winkler -
Ron