First Simon, thanks for your message. Yours is one of the most articulate explanations I've seen on this topic. Simon Michael simon@joyful.com writes:

Irene Barg <ibarg@as.arizona.edu> writes:

[examples of DMTL confusion...]

It is confusing. There are two systems of syntax in use here - DTML's and python's. Once you start using "" expressions, you have left DTML and you are in the python world.

...or "the python world with some Zope limitations placed on it." There's a third world of course, HTML. Most of us probably have that down solid, so we tend not to think of it in the context of "skills needed to master Zope." But whether it's wrapping data in an HTML table, or how to create dynamic CGI forms, mastering the integration of HTML and DTML is a critical skill that some apparently find difficult. (I've seen HOWTO's for it...)

- unfortunate reality #1: you have to use "" expressions to do any kind of comparison, so you are pretty much forced into dealing with these two worlds right from the beginning.

That's fine, but in the interests of good will and sanity, Zope should probably have a big fat warning label saying "DO NOT VENTURE HERE IF YOU DO NOT ALREADY KNOW, OR PLAN TO LEARN PYTHON." I did know Zope was written in Python. I did not expect that I would have to learn it. Maybe that was stupid on my part, but that's what I thought.

Still, entering the python world would normally be a good thing, since syntax there is simple and consistent. But,

- unfortunate reality #2: certain legacy zope variables contain "-" in their name. In the python world, this is illegal (or rather it means something different) and so you are forced to remember constructs like _['sequence-index'] all the time.

It might be that fixing one or both of the above would reduce the DTML pain factor quite a bit. Certainly, it's time to do whatever it takes to banish these "-"-named variables, IMHO.

Yes, it would help a lot. _[] is about as non-intuitive as you can get, especially after mixing in all the single and double quotes. Sure, if you understand python and how DTML wraps around it, it all makes sense, but that's a pretty narrow market and DMTL simply doesn't need to be that obfuscated. If the intended market is simply "people who grok Python", then there's really no point in something as Point n' Click n' GUI as Zope is. I certainly don't have all the answers, but it seems a simple matter to allow both sequence-index *and* sequence_index - i.e., create underscore equivalents alongside all the legacy "hyphen" variables. If I recall, I've even seen some user-contributed patches on this list to do just that. That's just one example of something in Zope that's "too difficult" screaming for change. But one of the practical advantages of making that kind of change is that the people who contribute their valuable time to help the newbies (and not-so-newbies) on this list won't spend quite so much time saying Try this: <dtml-in "AUTHENTICATED_USER.getRoles()"> <dtml-if "_['sequence-item'] == 'Admin'"> <dtml-call "REQUEST.set('edit_ok','y')"> </dtml-if> </dtml-in> That's an awful lot of weird syntax glue just to walk a list and set a value based on values in the list. If someone asked how to do that on a Perl mailing list, they'd be RTFM'ed and run out of town. Maybe that's not an entirely fair comparison, but still, how much of that syntax nightmare might be avoidable? I really don't know enough to say. Obviously *everything* has to be wrapped in something that at least distinguishes DTML from HTML. How quickly or deeply (or just *how*) one should get into python after that is another matter. Zope reminds me of NT in some ways (except that I *like* Zope). Zope, like NT, presents this illusion of friendly, easy learning curve, straight-forward "get the job done and move on" philosophy. At least that was my first impression. Then reality struck and I'm still recovering! What keeps me working with Zope is not so much what Zope is, but the promise of what it can be. (And the hope that when I'm finally a Python ace and understand the Zope source code from nose to tail, I'll be ready to work in DTML ;-) -cw- -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Charlie Wilkinson - cwilkins@boinklabs.com - N3HAZ Parental Unit, UNIX Admin, Homebrewer, Cat Lover, Spam Fighter, HAM, SWLer... Visit the Radio For Peace International Website: http://www.rfpi.org/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ CLOBBER INTERNET SPAM: See!! <http://spam.abuse.net/> Join!! <http://www.cauce.org/> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ QOTD: "Bush is a big corporation disguised as a human being running for president." -- Ralph Nader on David Letterman (9/28/00)