hi,

as some environments can support DTML (for instance Dreamweaver) this is not always a necessary.

is Dreamweaver MX btw any better than the previous version, i.e. does it still suffer from the fact that files need a dot and files such as index_html cannot be opened properly? regards Juergen

At 19:09 2002-09-11 +0200, Juergen Osterberg said:

hi,

...

as some environments can support DTML (for instance Dreamweaver) this is not always a necessary.

is Dreamweaver MX btw any better than the previous version, i.e. does it still suffer from the fact that files need a dot and files such as index_html cannot be opened properly?

Probably. And it probably does stupid thing over WebDAV as well (writing temp files to the server). I don't know for a fact though. But I think I tried it at one point. Regards, Johan -- Torped Strategi och Kommunikation AB Johan Carlsson johanc@torped.se Mail: Birkagatan 9 SE-113 36 Stockholm Sweden Visit: Västmannagatan 67, Stockholm, Sweden Phone +46-(0)8-32 31 23 Fax +46-(0)8-32 31 83 Mobil +46-(0)70-558 25 24 http://www.torped.se http://www.easypublisher.com

On Wednesday 11 September 2002 21:57, Aparajita Fishman wrote:

To make this trick work, you create a DTML Method index_html which contains the following:

<dtml-var index.html>

Your real code is then in index.html.

So, to have other pages work, you should double this several times: page001_html => page001.html page002_html => page002.html page003_html => page003.html page004_html => page004.html ... This is _ugly_. -- Regards, Bogdan If nothing else helps, read the documentation.

Andy McKay wrote:

It is in Zope 3. It is still being used in none compliant situations such as SQL statements, css, javascript.

Johan Carlsson [Torped] wrote:

TAL doesn't replace DTML, for instance is TAL not well suited for non-tagged markup (such as mail messages and ZSQL Methods).

These are more myths. ZPT is just as capable of generating SQL, css and javascript as DTML is. Want examples? Search the mailing list archives where I posted them ;-) Personally, I feel Zope Corp are making a mistake in Zope 3 by including both ZPT and DTML. One or other but not both because now you have to learn at least 3 languages (Python, ZCML, DTML) to use Zope 3, whereas you used to only need two (DTML, python)

At the moment it also seems like DTML has an performance advantage over TAL.

This is a problem that needs fixing.

DTML use the right way can separate presentation and logic equally efficient as TAL,

No it can't. DTML lacks explicitness of namespaces.

DTML still doesn't solve being cross-platform in HTML-editing environments, but as some environments can support DTML (for instance Dreamweaver) this is not always a necessary.

I bet the number of editors that support XHTML slightly outweighs the number that support DTML ;-)

Personally I think TAL is a brilliant idea, but DTML is still easier to use and faster to learn than TAL.

That is a mistaken belief. DTML can appear to be easier to use at first, because it does a lot of things implicitly. BUT, when (not if), that implicitness comes back to bite you on the ass, you'll find it a lot more difficult to figure out what's going on that if you'd taken the trouble to be explicit in the first place. cheers, Chris

The argument is that Page Templates are xhtml (or just xml) with the added TAL and METAL namespaces. So the only "proprietary" part of page templates are the contents of the tal expressions. Since these are just text and applications other than Zope can simply ignore the tal namespace entirely and still have valid xhtml, then page templates are standards conforming. Whereas DTML code is not valid xhtml or xml or even sgml, nor is it required to be, so it is "proprietary" that is, contrived without conforming to established standards. So, from this definition page templates are not proprietary. -Casey On Wednesday 11 September 2002 12:16 pm, Charlie Reiman wrote:

It's kinda true. But DTML is used throughout Zope's ZMI and countless 3rd party products. In addition, DTML is a generic macro language and is useful in places ZPT can't go, such as ZSQL methods.

DTML may be depricated but it's not going away anytime soon no matter how much people would like it to.

I do wonder though, is ZPT any less proprietary than DTML?

...

-----Original Message----- From: zope-admin@zope.org [mailto:zope-admin@zope.org]On Behalf Of Josef Meile Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 8:56 AM To: zope@zope.org Subject: [Zope] Re: Zope Myths?

Hi,

...

We've been giving some thought to the best way of informing people about Zope. An outline of the ground we plan to cover is at:

http://www.bris.ac.uk/is/projects/cms/zope/ucisa-sg/mythz.htm

It's interesting, but there is something that worries me:

...

Documental Template Markup Language (DTML) is now deprecated in favour of Zope Presentation Templates (ZPT). DTML, as well as being "proprietary", often lead to code that was hard to maintain. ZPT allows for a much better separation of presentation and logic (the logic being done in Python or Perl). Moreover, ZPT is XHTML compliant and can be edited with a wide range of tools.

Is it true? Does it mean that future versions of Zope won't support DTML?

Thanks, Josef

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