Very good point. It's true that something done right the first time is better, and going to full nine yards to achieve the full goal instead of this century's Henry Ford'ism of de-engineering is admirable... But, remember that HTML as a standard was a hack to begin with. One big hack. A basis that came after the complexities of SGML and a possible solution to bringing ARPNET (its not my day, so did i get the lingo right?) to the mass it did. My point here is that Andressen's 'keep it simple stupid' rendering engine and MS's 'assume the worst about the HTML and render bloody anything' are both required steps towards something better. More to the original point, the masses standardized VHS tapes because they were cheaper to manufacture and cheaper to buy. Sony and Toshiba picked up on it right away. Mozilla gone Netscape was a bid for the computerized VHS against the Beta MS monster IE that we all see more than anything in our logs. These 'ill-concieved graphical features' are yours and my idea of a cover up over faulty implementation of a standard, or even lack there-of, but demographically, but its those features that rope the masses into pulling the stats for investors to steer there cool millions towards this guy instead of that. The user's dont care anyhow about a feature until Wired magazine or Howard Stern on the radio told them to. We just have to sit and wait for the dust to settle. All I'm saying is that the web experts will spurn the ideas to excel the web, the public will smash it down becuase they dont get it, and then years later another medio-bloke will regurgitate it and be the next George Nice. So in the meantime, though NS4 is usually my worst day-mare, it at least 'gives me some good ideas in the meantime to NOT do it that way the next'. -Edison. Good night Paz -----Original Message----- From: Matt Gushee [mailto:mgushee@havenrock.com] Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2001 11:07 PM To: Paz Subject: RE: [Zope] Re: Andreesen must die... Paz writes:

Hmm, can agree with that, but its the public masses that seed standardization... How many people in the 80's actually payed attention to the fact that Beta was and still IS a better standard than VHS video tapes... Even the same for 8-track cassette... Its near DAT qaulity, although the iron oxides used were much cruder than today's norm.

Its more about the user's picking something up without having to know anything about it, rather than the developers who use it more intimate ways.... Thus is life in a capitalist world.

Not sure what your point is here. Are you saying that the general public likes the Web the way it is? Personally, I don't know too many people who find the Web user-friendly. Most of them use it in spite of, not because of, all the ill-conceived "features" that the browser vendors and in-love-with-their-own-hip-selves graphic designers have inflicted on us. Whereas if the browser makers had produced better products (i.e. less buggy and more standards compliant), that would give developers more time to create good user interfaces instead of spending all their time on compatibility kludges. I'm not sure they *would* create good UIs, just that they might be able to if they chose. Which would be a win-win situation, no? Matt Gushee