I reckon this is a bit like the issues that will crop up when XML RPC gets established: soon people will want to put multiple calls in one message, then add in some conditional error handling etc. and before you know it XML will become a complete programming language. For this reason, I think that any XML rendition of logic should correspond to the serialization of statement objects (closures?) in a well-defined programming language, such as, er...., well, why don't we suggest one? I think this is the sort of thing that http://www.nombas.com are doing with their distributed Javascript, but there are several similar initiatives out there. cheers Alex -----Original Message----- From: Jules Allen [mailto:zope@jules.com] Sent: 15 June 1999 15:29 To: Paul Everitt Cc: Jim Fulton; zope@zope.org Subject: Re: [Zope] <% ... %> ? At 08:36 AM 6/15/99 -0400, Paul Everitt wrote:

...

What makes it hideous? Is it the noice characters? (!--#) Is it the number of shift characters? Is it the fact that DTML don't look like other tags? Is it the tag in an attribute problem mentioned above?

I'd say, in order:

1) It doesn't look like the competition. (which is largely <% or inventing their own tags).

2) Excessive noise.

I'd swap those two around. Yes, PHP and ASP are similar but Cold Fusion is more like The Zope Way. I used CF before I used ASP, as Allaire obviously got there first, and my gut reaction to the <% %> delimiters after doing a couple of years of CF was "thank the Maker!" <cfThis> ... </cfThis> and <cfThat> ... </cfThat> is cumbersome to type, especially in the pre-HomeSite days. CF works exceptionally well for less technical end users as it's all a bunch of widgets. Learn or look up the syntax and Bob's your uncle: You're pulling stuff from databases and sending confirmation mails like a champion. Paul, you mentioned that the chasm between DTML and external methods is currently too great. I haven't had a chance to delve into externals yet but maybe this idea of that DTML is for Power Users is valid. I hate to suggest a Wizard but maybe some kind of DTML builder is necessary for those that need training wheels? I've already got a few test Zope/HomeSite definitions working. Maybe I'll get them finished up this weekend or next. Anybody know a good way to get permanent 4 day weekends? :-)

3) When something interesting requires the expr machinery, you can only do one expression per line. (Note that this complaint isn't slated to be solved by a syntax change in DTML, just that it is a common complaint).

I do understand your previous statement about separation of 'reporting' and 'logic' and I think it's a good one. However, from a user perspective, I only know how to clumsily use a hammer (DTML) right now so everything looks like a nail to me. Separation of Church and State is a lofty goal and both bleed into each other's turf.

[syntax/tool support observations snipped]

Here's a chance for all of you folks out there with expertise in HTML tools (Dreamweaver, FrontPage, Cyberstudio, Alpha, Emacs, etc.) to weigh in.

As I said, I've got sample HomeSite definitions on the go but I'd really like to get my head around doing a (vi|vim) definition style as it's a better editor for my needs. I've never done one but I'm sure it can't be that hard. Of course Emacs is a nice operating system but I prefer Linux at home so I can't comment on that ;-)

...

...

2) Becoming well-formed means the authors can be given hints before saving changes,

Good point.

Erm, #var seems kind of fluid and only a very, very smart editor would be able to offer hints effectively.

Let's say you rename a document. Nearly all the competition will update all the references to the document.

...and links, etc... I'd also like to say how refreshing and intelligent the comments from everybody are. So far I can't find one email where anybody's been called an a**hole. ;-) ZINU-(Zope-is-Not-USENET)-ly-yrs, baby! Jules -- "There should be one-- and preferably only one --obvious way to do it. Although that way may not be obvious at first unless you're Dutch." -- Tim <0.8 wink> Peters _______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://www.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope (For developer-specific issues, use the companion list, zope-dev@zope.org - http://www.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ) ########################################## This email, its content and any files transmitted with it are intended solely for the addressee(s) and may be legally privileged and/or confidential. Access by any other party is unauthorised without the express written permission of the sender. If you have received this email in error you may not copy or use the contents, attachments or information in any way. Please destroy it and contact the sender on the number printed above, via the Dresdner Kleinwort Benson switchboard on +44 171 623 8000 or via e-mail return. Internet communications are not secure unless protected using strong cryptography. This email has been prepared using information believed by the author to be reliable and accurate, but Dresdner Kleinwort Benson makes no warranty as to accuracy or completeness. In particular Dresdner Kleinwort Benson does not accept responsibility for changes made to this email after it was sent. Any opinions expressed in this document are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the Bank or its affiliates. They may be subject to change without notice. ##########################################