Re: [Zope] Fourth request for help - Win2K+Zope
Michael Simcich <msimcich@accesstools.com> wrote
<snip>
I know what most everyone here would recommend I switch to, Linux for OS and Zope for writing applications. That at least is not obscured. And the reasons are transparent too, Linux works well if you know it, and Zope is unlike any other tool we have available. I was interested in evaluating Zope first, before learning Linux, but perhaps I don't have that choice.
For simple feature evaluation, try a Win98 or NT box, and stick to using ZServer as a service -- Zope works beautifully in those configurations (modulo some Win95/8 weirdness on startup if you don't have DNS handy).
Oh... I just saw that you wrote "but without any customers that want/need this, it will not happen unless someone can pinpoint with some accuracy how exactly it fails on 2K". I didn't get that before - you are talking about DC's paying customers. It's certainly a fair division, but I hadn't quite plugged it in as this much of a factor in how Zope is extended/fixed/understood. I should have, it makes sense, I just didn't get it in this way before.
Your real problem is that Win2K is uncharted territory for almost everyone on this list: "Hic sunt draconis" is the first response for most. That said, I routinely move folders and products between Zopes running on both Linux and NT, precisely to avoid depending on platform idiosyncracies.
Have you considered that the problem is not Zope at all, but perhaps some sort of conflict with your existing setup or some other parameter?
Of course I have, and of course I have no idea what to look for. What I was hoping for was a pointer or two, Zope is a black box to me. No errors are produced, as I said, so any failure between it and W2K is unrecorded. I don't really care if it's Zope or python or Win2K or my rig that has a "problem" if indeed there is either a real problem or just a mismatched switch or two, I just want to know how to accommodate "it".
The classic Windows troubleshooting procedure goes something like: * Install Windows on a bare box, using the VGA driver (video drivers are _notorious_ for causing pseudo-random bugs in apparently unrelated applications). Snapshot the registry to a text file. * Install only the software which you are trying to install, and test (if it breaks here, your next best bet on the system side is the network card driver). Snapshot the registry to another text file. * Add the other components of the system one a time, testing after each and snapshotting the registry to a new text file. When the app in question breaks, diff the two most recen registry snapshots, and look at the DLL's installed by the most recently-installed app.
I'm coming from the MS world. There if a problem arises, as they do in abundance, everyone involved with the products more or less has a stake in resolving problems. In a way, they all share the baseline weaknesses of the Windows realm and MS's products. My brick wall is their brick wall, to some extent. Here, my brick wall is... mine.
Don't misread DC -- they _do_ have an interest in supporting Zope on Win2K; what they don't have is the ability to troubleshoot your configuration in the absence of more specific data than you provide, especially given reports from other Win2K users that it "works for them" there. Somebody (Martijn Pieters, I think?) gave you pointers for stepping into the Zope startup process using the Python debugger: if you can, doing that and reporting the full context at the place things go haywire is the surest way to get resolution (short of buying a support contract, that is -- but then, the first thing DC would do is to perform the exact same troubleshooting). And to answer the subtext: I have been working with Microsoft platforms professionally for the last 10 years, and I have gotten significant help from Microsoft exactly _once_ in the dozens of support calls I made, some on behalf of Fortune 100 companies (I don't consider "try reinstalling Windows and see if that helps" to be "significant help"). I see far better support here daily, from both DC and the Zope community, than I ever expect to see from the Redmond juggernaut.
Anyways, thanks for clearing up some of these things for me. With any luck I'll be able to spend some time with a working copy of Zope sometime in the near future and my questions will be more resolvable.
-- ========================================================= Tres Seaver tseaver@palladion.com 713-523-6582 Palladion Software http://www.palladion.com
Hi Tres - Everything you've said makes sense. There is no compare between what DC offers and what MS offers. DC says here is the product for free and we'll more or less be available to help you with quirks. MS sells you the product and that's the end of the story. I didn't intent to start howling about DC, they've done something significant for all of us by making Zope available. I *was* very frustrated with the fact that there didn't seem to be any recourse to a dead zope install, and that this didn't seem to be very important to anyone.
Don't misread DC -- they _do_ have an interest in supporting Zope on Win2K; what they don't have is the ability to troubleshoot your configuration in the absence of more specific data than you provide, especially given reports from other Win2K users that it "works for them" there. Somebody (Martijn Pieters, I think?) gave you pointers for stepping into the Zope startup process using the Python debugger:
Martijn was kind enough to get me started with the debugger and it was fixed very simply. So they did have the ability to troubleshoot my config to some extent even though I couldn't tell them more than "nothing happens". I was hunting for exactly this sort of pointer - what else can I try if Zope won't turn over? It took me seven days to get that little tip, and a lot of wasted bandwidth on the list (sheesh, four posts on the same issue... but what else could I do?) I don't think it's easy for most of the folks here to get how foreign Zope is to someone like myself. With Martijn's help I was able to start up the python debugger and interpret what it reported, but without that first pointer from Martijn I've no idea what to try. I seemed to mostly get advice to the effect that "Well it's Windoze what do you expect?" That... just doesn't help much. The impression I get from having paid attention to this list for a couple of months is that it's composed of a very sophisticated and mature group. I know there has been some talk recently about going off half cocked, but compared to most lists I've had exposure to this list is already way ahead of the game. Hopefully I will find Zope a good fit and will eventually be able to contribute something useful myself. Ah - what does "Hic sunt draconis" translate to? In context it's clear, but it would be fun to know the literal meaning <g>. Michael Simcich AccessTools -----Original Message----- From: zope-admin@zope.org [mailto:zope-admin@zope.org]On Behalf Of Tres Seaver Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2000 2:32 PM To: zope@zope.org; Michael Simcich Subject: Re: [Zope] Fourth request for help - Win2K+Zope Michael Simcich <msimcich@accesstools.com> wrote
<snip>
I know what most everyone here would recommend I switch to, Linux for OS
and
Zope for writing applications. That at least is not obscured. And the reasons are transparent too, Linux works well if you know it, and Zope is unlike any other tool we have available. I was interested in evaluating Zope first, before learning Linux, but perhaps I don't have that choice.
For simple feature evaluation, try a Win98 or NT box, and stick to using ZServer as a service -- Zope works beautifully in those configurations (modulo some Win95/8 weirdness on startup if you don't have DNS handy).
Oh... I just saw that you wrote "but without any customers that want/need this, it will not happen unless someone can pinpoint with some accuracy how exactly it fails on 2K". I didn't get that before - you are talking about DC's paying customers. It's certainly a fair division, but I hadn't quite plugged it in as this much of a factor in how Zope is extended/fixed/understood. I should have, it makes sense, I just didn't get it in this way before.
Your real problem is that Win2K is uncharted territory for almost everyone on this list: "Hic sunt draconis" is the first response for most. That said, I routinely move folders and products between Zopes running on both Linux and NT, precisely to avoid depending on platform idiosyncracies.
Have you considered that the problem is not Zope at all, but perhaps some sort of conflict with your existing setup or some other parameter?
Of course I have, and of course I have no idea what to look for. What I
was
hoping for was a pointer or two, Zope is a black box to me. No errors are produced, as I said, so any failure between it and W2K is unrecorded. I don't really care if it's Zope or python or Win2K or my rig that has a "problem" if indeed there is either a real problem or just a mismatched switch or two, I just want to know how to accommodate "it".
The classic Windows troubleshooting procedure goes something like: * Install Windows on a bare box, using the VGA driver (video drivers are _notorious_ for causing pseudo-random bugs in apparently unrelated applications). Snapshot the registry to a text file. * Install only the software which you are trying to install, and test (if it breaks here, your next best bet on the system side is the network card driver). Snapshot the registry to another text file. * Add the other components of the system one a time, testing after each and snapshotting the registry to a new text file. When the app in question breaks, diff the two most recen registry snapshots, and look at the DLL's installed by the most recently-installed app.
I'm coming from the MS world. There if a problem arises, as they do in abundance, everyone involved with the products more or less has a stake in resolving problems. In a way, they all share the baseline weaknesses of
the
Windows realm and MS's products. My brick wall is their brick wall, to some extent. Here, my brick wall is... mine.
Don't misread DC -- they _do_ have an interest in supporting Zope on Win2K; what they don't have is the ability to troubleshoot your configuration in the absence of more specific data than you provide, especially given reports from other Win2K users that it "works for them" there. Somebody (Martijn Pieters, I think?) gave you pointers for stepping into the Zope startup process using the Python debugger: if you can, doing that and reporting the full context at the place things go haywire is the surest way to get resolution (short of buying a support contract, that is -- but then, the first thing DC would do is to perform the exact same troubleshooting). And to answer the subtext: I have been working with Microsoft platforms professionally for the last 10 years, and I have gotten significant help from Microsoft exactly _once_ in the dozens of support calls I made, some on behalf of Fortune 100 companies (I don't consider "try reinstalling Windows and see if that helps" to be "significant help"). I see far better support here daily, from both DC and the Zope community, than I ever expect to see from the Redmond juggernaut.
Anyways, thanks for clearing up some of these things for me. With any luck I'll be able to spend some time with a working copy of Zope sometime in
the
near future and my questions will be more resolvable.
-- ========================================================= Tres Seaver tseaver@palladion.com 713-523-6582 Palladion Software http://www.palladion.com _______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
participants (2)
-
Michael Simcich -
Tres Seaver