RE: Is Structured Text Broken in Zope 2.4x ???
Chris McDonough: Thanks for your courteous reply, and the links to definitive rules for ClassicStructuredText and StructuredTextNG. On zope.org, the available documentation on Structured Text for aspiring Zopers is a bit confusing, because it is often not clear what is definitive, what is is a proposal, what is ClassicStructuredText, what is StructuredTextNG, what is StructuredText Zwiki, and what may be just a member's opinion. It is also not clear as to which version of Structured Text is supported in which release of Zope. To document the spacing problem in STXNG bulleted outlines, I offer a specific example for the benefit of other readers: In Zope 2.4.1, the following structured text: - Red - Green - Blue - First - Second - Third - Freshman - Junior - Senior outputs to browser-rendered html that looks much like this in MS IE v5.50: o Red o Green o Blue o First o Second o Third o Freshman o Junior o Senior This spacing problem is the result of an unfortunate and non-XHTML compliant nesting of generated tags in the html output. Also, thank you for clarifying the issue of tables in StructuredTextNG. The rules are indeed very different from those that were implemented in some versions of ClassicStructuredText and Zwiki StructuredText. I note that the following StructuredTextNG source does render as an HTML table in Zope 2.41: |---------------------------------------| | Quan | Part # | Price | |=======================================| | 15 | DYST-100D | $2195.00 | |---------------------------------------| | 32 | IPO-337Z | $95.00 | |---------------------------------------| | 67 | ATA-456Q | $395.00 | |---------------------------------------| | 133 | TGT-375RST | $20.00 | |---------------------------------------| However, while the resulting html is formatted well enough to render as a properly-sized table in MS IE, the first column of the table does not render correctly. Of course, the whole issue of tables in Structured Text is probably not critical for the vast majority of applications. (HTML is plenty fine if one needs the next step up in formatting flexibility!) I will begin work on bug reports, patches, and possibly some enhancements for StructuredTextNG. Any help and hints will be gratefully accepted. Of primary interest is correcting the killer bug that appears in the structured-text method in Products.PythonScripts.standard in Zope 2.4.x. Correcting that bug appears to be the most elegant way to support StructuredText-formatted topics on ZPT-formatted pages. Steve Bain _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
On zope.org, the available documentation on Structured Text for aspiring Zopers is a bit confusing, because it is often not clear what is definitive, what is is a proposal, what is ClassicStructuredText, what is StructuredTextNG, what is StructuredText Zwiki, and what may be just a member's opinion. It is also not clear as to which version of Structured Text is supported in which release of Zope.
I dont like Wikis very much for documentation for this very reason. But for some inscrutable reason, Those Who Use Wikis For Documentation appear to disagree. ;-)
To document the spacing problem in STXNG bulleted outlines, I offer a specific example for the benefit of other readers:
In Zope 2.4.1, the following structured text:
- Red
- Green
- Blue
- First
- Second
- Third
- Freshman
- Junior
- Senior
outputs to browser-rendered html that looks much like this in MS IE v5.50:
o Red
o Green
o Blue o First
o Second
o Third o Freshman
o Junior
o Senior
Weird. I can't seem to replicate this under IE 5.5 and Zope 2.4.1. Comparable source renders like so for me: <html> <body bgcolor="#FFFFFF"> <ul> <li><p>hello</p></li> <li><p>there</p></li> <li><p>this</p></li> <li><p>is</p></li> <li><p>a bugtest</p></li> <li><p>of massive</p></li> <li><p>proportions</p></li> <li><p>so dont</p></li> <li><p>do get excited</p></li> </ul> </body> </html> re: tables
However, while the resulting html is formatted well enough to render as a properly-sized table in MS IE, the first column of the table does not render correctly.
Hmm.. that sounds like a bug.
I will begin work on bug reports, patches, and possibly some enhancements for StructuredTextNG. Any help and hints will be gratefully accepted.
Excellent, mo problem, I'll do what I can.
Of primary interest is correcting the killer bug that appears in the structured-text method in Products.PythonScripts.standard in Zope 2.4.x. Correcting that bug appears to be the most elegant way to support StructuredText-formatted topics on ZPT-formatted pages.
Sure. The "::" appears to work for me, but I couldnt get the URL-anchoring to work. I'm unforunately not able at the moment to investigate why. - C
I've been bitten by how NG renders bullets myself. Crucially, it differs from Classic in the insertion of <p> tags within the <li>. Is this correct HTML? It seems wrong to me - AFAIK, <li> tags are block tags in their own right. I removed the insertion of paragraphs from my HTMLClass. Can someone from ZC confirm why this output rule changed? seb * Chris McDonough <chrism@zope.com> [011016 05:28]:
Weird. I can't seem to replicate this under IE 5.5 and Zope 2.4.1. Comparable source renders like so for me:
<ul> <li><p>hello</p></li> <li><p>there</p></li> <li><p>this</p></li> <li><p>is</p></li> <li><p>a bugtest</p></li> <li><p>of massive</p></li> <li><p>proportions</p></li> <li><p>so dont</p></li> <li><p>do get excited</p></li>
<snip>
I dont like Wikis very much for documentation for this very reason. But for some inscrutable reason, Those Who Use Wikis For Documentation appear to disagree. ;-)
BTW: ZWikis are using the version of structured text (old vs. ng) of the Zope they're running under, aren't they? <snip>
Weird. I can't seem to replicate this under IE 5.5 and Zope 2.4.1. Comparable source renders like so for me:
<html> <body bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<ul> <li><p>hello</p></li> <li><p>there</p></li> <li><p>this</p></li> <li><p>is</p></li> <li><p>a bugtest</p></li> <li><p>of massive</p></li> <li><p>proportions</p></li> <li><p>so dont</p></li> <li><p>do get excited</p></li>
</ul> </body> </html>
That paragraph tag insertion always looked weird to me. The tag is not only superfluous but also adds space between lines where it shouldn't be and doesn't render correctly on all browsers. I think it should be removed. Ragnar
<snip>
I dont like Wikis very much for documentation for this very reason. But for some inscrutable reason, Those Who Use Wikis For Documentation appear to disagree. ;-)
BTW: ZWikis are using the version of structured text (old vs. ng) of the Zope they're running under, aren't they?
That's right..
That paragraph tag insertion always looked weird to me. The tag is not only superfluous but also adds space between lines where it shouldn't be and doesn't render correctly on all browsers. I think it should be removed.
I think you're right. :-( Anyone volunteer to come up with patches? - C
* Chris McDonough <chrism@zope.com> [011017 12:18]:
That paragraph tag insertion always looked weird to me. The tag is not only superfluous but also adds space between lines where it shouldn't be and doesn't render correctly on all browsers. I think it should be removed.
I think you're right. :-( Anyone volunteer to come up with patches?
I've got the changes already, since I fixed it in my own zope. I assumed that there was some Good Reason for the <p>s, though, since they had been deliberately added by someone at some point between Classic and NG. Could the person who did it confirm it's wrong, I wonder? seb
I think you're right. :-( Anyone volunteer to come up with patches?
I've got the changes already, since I fixed it in my own zope. I assumed that there was some Good Reason for the <p>s, though, since they had been deliberately added by someone at some point between Classic and NG. Could the person who did it confirm it's wrong, I wonder?
I'd bet that there's No Good Reason. ;-) I doubt anyone will take exception to this. - C
I think you're right. :-( Anyone volunteer to come up with patches?
I've got the changes already, since I fixed it in my own zope. I assumed that there was some Good Reason for the <p>s, though, since they had been deliberately added by someone at some point between Classic and NG. Could the person who did it confirm it's wrong, I wonder?
I'd bet that there's No Good Reason. ;-) I doubt anyone will take exception to this.
The only reason I can imagine is that some people don't like the default line spacing in lists. Paragraph tags can be abused to add more space between the single list items. But nowadays that can as well be done with CSS, can't it? Ragnar
Hi Chris, "Chris McDonough" <chrism@zope.com> writes:
On zope.org, the available documentation on Structured Text for aspiring Zopers is a bit confusing, because it is often not clear what is definitive, what is is a proposal, what is ClassicStructuredText, what is StructuredTextNG, what is StructuredText Zwiki, and what may be just a member's opinion. It is also not clear as to which version of Structured Text is supported in which release of Zope.
I dont like Wikis very much for documentation for this very reason.
<gasp!> ackk.. kcchhh.. :-) But seriously, why you feel this is a wiki problem ? Did you mean "the way we are currently using wiki for zope documentation" or wiki technology in general ? I agree with the problem described of course, and I'm interested in solving it too.
BTW: ZWikis are using the version of structured text (old vs. ng) of the Zope they're running under, aren't they?
That's right..
Oho, I thought the HTML() method used by zwiki was classic stx, even on 2.4, but I see I was wrong. I'm close to doing some 2.4 testing for myself (as soon as I figure out why DTML has stopped executing on my system..) A related note: for people who have been experiencing problems with UserOptions due to 2.4's different handling of _, it sounds like this might have been fixed in 2.4.3 ? Perhaps someone can confirm. best regards, -Simon
Simon Michael wrote:
---SNIP ---SNIP
I'm close to doing some 2.4 testing for myself (as soon as I figure out why DTML has stopped executing on my system..)
A related note: for people who have been experiencing problems with UserOptions due to 2.4's different handling of _, it sounds like this might have been fixed in 2.4.3 ? Perhaps someone can confirm.
best regards, -Simon
Hi Simon Concerning UserOptions: I tried with *zwikidotorg - Version 0.9.6* sample WikiWeb on Zope 2.4.3beta1 and UserOptions was working again (not any more broken as with earlier Zope 2.4 versions) Regards --- Flynt
The latest 2.4.3 release contains several fixes for the never-ending-underline stuff. Andreas ----- Original Message ----- From: "flynt" <flynt@gmx.ch> To: "Simon Michael" <simon@joyful.com> Cc: <zope@zope.org> Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2001 14:40 Subject: Re: [Zope] Re: Is Structured Text Broken in Zope 2.4x ???
Simon Michael wrote:
---SNIP
---SNIP
I'm close to doing some 2.4 testing for myself (as soon as I figure out why DTML has stopped executing on my system..)
A related note: for people who have been experiencing problems with UserOptions due to 2.4's different handling of _, it sounds like this might have been fixed in 2.4.3 ? Perhaps someone can confirm.
best regards, -Simon
Hi Simon
Concerning UserOptions: I tried with *zwikidotorg - Version 0.9.6* sample WikiWeb on Zope 2.4.3beta1 and UserOptions was working again (not any more broken as with earlier Zope 2.4 versions)
Regards
--- Flynt
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Hi Simon,
But seriously, why you feel this is a wiki problem ? Did you mean "the way we are currently using wiki for zope documentation" or wiki technology in general ?
The former, mostly, I think. Wikis are not really the best tool in their current forms for this goal because they heavily encourage "bazaar"-style collaborations that are somewhat at odds IMHO with documentation's humdrum purpose, which is to boil complicated stuff down to explicable chunks). The bazaar loves complexity, documentation loves simplicity. People read documentation *way* more than they write it, even more so than code; they want to read it and maybe suggest corrections, but in the end they want some accountability for what they're reading. They want to know that some version of what they're reading is "canonical". They also want its ordering to be maintained and for it to be consistent. Documentation in this respect is more "cathedral" than "bazaar", if only because it attracts fewer people because there's not much glory in keeping it up. Still, it's useful to lower the bar as much as possible for people to contribute to documentation artifacts when there's a mistake or a hole. This is one of the reasons I helped write BackTalk, which runs the Zope Developer's Guide on Zope.org. It's wikilike in that it lets community folks contribute to docs, but in a limited and clearly additive fashion that leaves little question to what is canonical and what isn't. - C
Good list of valuable qualities for web documentation. "Chris McDonough" <chrism@zope.com> writes:
The former, mostly, I think. Wikis are not really the best tool in their current forms for this goal because they heavily encourage "bazaar"-style collaborations that are somewhat at odds IMHO with
Gotcha. I slightly fear that the word "wiki" has become associated with mandatory wide-openness, inevitable chaos. When I think wiki I'm usually thinking "all possible configurations of wiki+zope you can dream up". Also I think, perhaps you'll agree, there's just no getting around the need for sustained maintenance effort to achieve those qualities you mentioned, regardless of the tool. But no question the right tool & model can be vital. I had another look at BackTalk and it's great - hope it works out well.
participants (7)
-
Andreas Jung -
Chris McDonough -
flynt -
Ragnar Beer -
seb bacon -
Simon Michael -
Steve Bain