====== Forwarded Message ====== Date: 19.09.2000 16:57 Uhr Received: 19.09.2000 22:58 Uhr From: licensing@gnu.org (Free Software Foundation) To: nika@kassube.de (Nils Kassube) Nils Kassube wrote:
If I use a GPL'ed component in a complex object oriented environment like Zope, does this mean that the whole work is now subject to the GPL?
work = Zope-based web site/web application use = e.g. subclassing it or method calls, etc.
It sounds like you are building software that combines Zope and GPL'ed software to form a single, larger program. In this case, the whole larger program falls under the terms of the GPL. This is a real problem, since the license of Zope is incompatible with the GNU GPL. This means you can't legally distribute the system.
If the GPL applies to the entire work, the resulting question is: How do I separate my work inside a Zope-based application from GPL'ed pieces to prevent this from happening? Or do I have to rewrite the GPL part?
You cannot legally combined GPL'ed software with Zope. You'll need to rewrite the Zope part and release the software under a license compatible with the Zope license, or you'll need to convince the developers of Zope to make their license compatible with the GPL. (In the latter case, the whole system would be covered by the GPL, so you'd still be bound by the terms of the GPL---the only difference would be that it'd be legally to distribute the system, since Zope wouldn't be GPL-incompatible anymore.)
Everything would be easy, if we would only be talking about programs like Emacs but Zope products/modules/components/whatever look more like libraries to me...
Regardless of whether or not a program is a library, when you combine it with GPL'ed software to form a larger program, all of the code in the system falls under the terms of the GPL. -- Bradley M. Kuhn Free Software Foundation | Phone: +1-617-542-5942 59 Temple Place, Suite 330 | Fax: +1-617-542-2652 Boston, MA 02111-1307 USA | Web: http://www.gnu.org ====== End Forwarded Message ======
[Nils Kassube] | From: licensing@gnu.org (Free Software Foundation) [Bradley M. Kuhn] | | It sounds like you are building software that combines Zope and | GPL'ed software to form a single, larger program. In this case, the | whole larger program falls under the terms of the GPL. I don't exactly understand. Does this mean that I can't use any GPL-ed Products combined with Zope and distribute them? For example, I couldn't the use the GPL-ed CookieLess Session Management Product with my application and legally distribute it with Zope? Does this also mean that I can't make a complete application, released under the GPL, and distribute it legally with Zope to my clients? If so, is there a way that this can be done legally, without relicensing any of the "programs"? | This is a real problem, since the license of Zope is incompatible | with the GNU GPL. This means you can't legally distribute the | system. But what is defined as distribution? Can I install Zope on-site, then install the GPL-ed application and it would be legal? | You cannot legally combined GPL'ed software with Zope. Not at all? | You'll need to rewrite the Zope part [...] Sure, that's easy... Wouldn't take me more than a century ;)
Let me ask a more precise question. Zope is not released under GPL. Joe repleases a component which can be used with Zope under GPL license. Zope.org makes it available for download, but in no way incorporates it into their base system. (I.e., it is available for integration by an end user). Joan uses Zope with Joe's component (Product in Zope parlance). She writes something that depends on Joe's product being present, but makes no modification to Joe's product. She does not wish to GPL her work. Can she give directions on how to acquire Joe's product and install it preliminary to installing her own work? Can she distribute Zope, Joe's product, and her own product, as long as they are packaged separately? Can she write an installer that fetches Joe's Product and installs it before installing her own work?
On Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 01:05:04PM -0400, jpenny@universal-fasteners.com wrote:
Joan uses Zope with Joe's component (Product in Zope parlance). She writes something that depends on Joe's product being present,
So her work must be GPLed too, because it's considered just like she links with a GPLed library. However, while all the software I program is under GPL, I just consider Zope just as a proprietary (don't take me wrong on this) library: The GPL allows developpers to link their own programs with proprietary libraries (I suppose it's the case for example if you install the GNU compiler environment but not glibc under a proprietary Unix, but I don't know if this is technically possible). That's why if I was to produce a GPL Zope product, I'd personnally choose to consider the GPL this way: Any Zope application or product effectively depending on my product must be GPLed, but I don't want Zope to be GPLed because it really not depend on my product. While I'm convinced that the FSF is the Good Thing Here (tm), it seems to me that they haven't understood how Zope works: The FSF's answer seems wrong to me in this particular aspect because it seems they want Zope to be GPLed too. So I ask why they don't ask to Sun to licence their system libraries under the GPL, or even JAVA, since its allowed to develop Java programs and licence them under the GPL: Java depends on my GPLed software just like Zope depends on my GPLed Zope product: in fact it doesn't depend on it at all ! I can't see no difference. I'd be very pleased to be enlightened a bit. bye, Jerome Alet
[jpenny@universal-fasteners.com] | Can she distribute Zope, Joe's product, and her own product, as long | as they are packaged separately? What is defined as "package separately". Different .rpms/.tgz, different CDs, or what?
On Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 08:27:47PM +0200, Erik Enge wrote:
[jpenny@universal-fasteners.com]
| Can she distribute Zope, Joe's product, and her own product, as long | as they are packaged separately?
What is defined as "package separately". Different .rpms/.tgz, different CDs, or what?
I Don't care what the requirements are, just want to know the limitations. That is, if they are delivered only on separate CDROMs (or diskettes) or other physical media is that enough? If they are delivered only electronically in some bundling scheme, (tgz, rpm, deb, zip, etc.) is that enough? That is, my reading of the GPL says that Joan may use Joe's product as she pleases, as long as she does not redistribute a product which contains Joe's product. Certainly, she may distribute her work under the license of her choice if she does not distribute Joe's product (at all). I can see no reason that she cannot point her user to Joe's product and give directions on how to install it. (I cannot even see a prohibition on automating the retrieval and installation of Joe's product, as long as Joan does not distribute it!) This was meant to probe the limits of what Joan can do. I think it is agreed that distributing Zope + Joe's Product preloaded as a unitary package is not consistent with the GPL. Distributing Zope + Joe's GPL Product + Joan's Evil Proprietary License Product preloaded as a unitary product is even more contrary to the GPL. But, I want to know if FSF agrees that under the GPL Joan can distribute a copy of Zope, a copy of Joe's Product (plugin), and whatever else Joan wishes to distribute under the license of her choice, as long as Joan does not perform the actual integration? (And can Joan write an installer?)
+-------[ jpenny@universal-fasteners.com ]---------------------- | Let me ask a more precise question. | | Zope is not released under GPL. | | Joe repleases a component which can be used with Zope under GPL license. | Zope.org makes it available for download, but in no way incorporates | it into their base system. (I.e., it is available for integration | by an end user). No with an if, yes with a but.. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ This General Public License does not permit incorporating your program into proprietary programs. If your program is a subroutine library, you may consider it more useful to permit linking proprietary applications with the library. If this is what you want to do, use the GNU Library General Public License instead of this License. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ If Zope is considered proprietary, the answer is no. The GPL is supposed to stop Zope/DC from taking your product and distributing it with Zope. It is also designed to force people who write applications to release under GPL. The fundamental flaw with this clause is that it assumes that the GPLd code existed first. It does not take into consideration that you might want to extend a proprietary program using GPL code. This also holds for things like GPL drivers for Solaris e.g. Sun have recently found a weakness in the GPL and are exploiting it, so perhaps all is not lost for GPL stuff for Zope. http://www.linuxgram.com/newsitem.phtml?sid=108&aid=10785 There is another option.. That is to treat Zope like an operating system, and to treat products as applications under that Operating System. (whether FSF will see it that way is another thing). However, all subsequent products, that call your product must be GPL. You write a tag, and its GPL, anyone that uses your tag has to release as GPL. You can not infinitely abstract the metaphor. If you want other people to be able to use your code, but still want to retain your GPL, then use LGPL, which protects your code and derivations, but, does not infringe on other people's license choice. -- Totally Holistic Enterprises Internet| P:+61 7 3870 0066 | Andrew Milton The Internet (Aust) Pty Ltd | F:+61 7 3870 4477 | ACN: 082 081 472 ABN: 83 082 081 472 | M:+61 416 022 411 | Carpe Daemon PO Box 837 Indooroopilly QLD 4068 |akm@theinternet.com.au|
participants (5)
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Andrew Kenneth Milton -
Erik Enge -
Jerome ALET -
jpenny＠universal-fasteners.com -
Nils Kassube