Dear friends. A few days ago the Ruby on Rails development team published the 1.0 release. At that occasion the Zope fans are reminded how far Zope fell far behind in terms of attention and recognized widespread. Python has batteries included. Zope is a power plant. But still everyone speaks of Django, Turbogears or Ruby on Rails. Even if they talk about the shortcommings of J2EE. Some of the best content management systems are build using Zope 2. CPS, ZMS and my favourite: Plone. And Typo3 gets even more attention. Why? Because we failed. We aren't marketing Zope at all. Have a look at zope.org. Do you think, that any CEO will stay at that site more than 10 seconds? Have a look at rubyonrails.org and cry. Zope 3.2 will be delivered soon. Have any look at zope.org where is You got it. To a certain extent Zope 2 was attracting like a nuclear power plant. Whenever I start programming with Zope 2, latest for Plone, I can feel its power before even diving into it much, but I'm alarmed of its pitfalls at the very same time. So all my hopes are with Zope 3 which enabled me without hurting me yet. Will I get a truly powerful replacement for J2EE? Here are my ideas to make Zope 3 the most successful framework ever: Make them love Zope at the very first look: * Make installing Zope a double-click or one-command-only experience and * offer a 30 minutes tutorial of programming an useful application including an audiovisual show for an appetizer that offers a feeling of success. Bribe the managers: * Include Microsoft SQL-Server and Oracle relational database access. * Include powerful XML processing facilities and * include everything necessary and useful to build or use web services. Enable the beginners: * Easy to read and understand but still complete and current documentation is a must. * Avoid cluttering everything about Zope across articles, blogs, chats, mailing lists and wikis. Keep everything available and searchable at one central location. Remember: The power of Ruby on Rails doesn't come from either Ruby or the framework but from its community. And of course make Zope 4 even better. Regards, Gert http://www.gertthiel.de/blog/drafts/ivory-tower/
Here are my ideas to make Zope 3 the most successful framework ever:
Make them love Zope at the very first look:
* Make installing Zope a double-click or one-command-only experience and * offer a 30 minutes tutorial of programming an useful application including an audiovisual show for an appetizer that offers a feeling of success.
Enable the beginners:
* Easy to read and understand ‹ but still complete and current ‹ documentation is a must. * Avoid cluttering everything about Zope across articles, blogs, chats, mailing lists and wikis. Keep everything available and searchable at one central location.
I think "Make them love Zope at the very first look" and "Enable the Beginner" is on the same issue , I consider my self a beginner and trying to learn Zope I found many resources on google but a little bit of "chaos" , a better united source from the central Zope (Zope.org) it is required. I is a shame to know that there is a big help and a big community but not so well united and organized. Zope Book 2.7 it is in the same stage it was before 3,5 months ago when I started to reading it with some example only in DTML when Zope encourage leaving DTML for ZPT. The how-to section (http://www.zope.org/Documentation/How-To/index_html?&sort_on=modified&sort_o...) have *_only_* 3 post's for the year *2005 *!!! A Zope editor is a must or to find another way more flexible ! external editor product it is steel a way but a ugly way in my opinion (no offense for the product) , to add numbers on every line when coding it will be a big step. I don't want to blame the official Zope team , the are running with hard work for sure. It is just that Zope can do so much thing's compare to other products out there but important details have been left unaccomplished... I hope the point of this mail is to make Zope better and not to be considered as an accusation or an attack... Zope need and can become better :)
Nicolas Georgakopoulos wrote:
Here are my ideas to make Zope 3 the most successful framework ever:
Make them love Zope at the very first look:
* Make installing Zope a double-click or one-command-only experience and * offer a 30 minutes tutorial of programming an useful application including an audiovisual show for an appetizer that offers a feeling of success.
Enable the beginners:
* Easy to read and understand ‹ but still complete and current ‹ documentation is a must. * Avoid cluttering everything about Zope across articles, blogs, chats, mailing lists and wikis. Keep everything available and searchable at one central location.
I think "Make them love Zope at the very first look" and "Enable the Beginner" is on the same issue , I consider my self a beginner and trying to learn Zope I found many resources on google but a little bit of "chaos" , a better united source from the central Zope (Zope.org) it is required. I is a shame to know that there is a big help and a big community but not so well united and organized. Zope Book 2.7 it is in the same stage it was before 3,5 months ago when I started to reading it with some example only in DTML when Zope encourage leaving DTML for ZPT. The how-to section (http://www.zope.org/Documentation/How-To/index_html?&sort_on=modified&sort_o...) have *_only_* 3 post's for the year *2005 *!!! A Zope editor is a must or to find another way more flexible ! external editor product it is steel a way but a ugly way in my opinion (no offense for the product) , to add numbers on every line when coding it will be a big step.
I don't want to blame the official Zope team , the are running with hard work for sure. It is just that Zope can do so much thing's compare to other products out there but important details have been left unaccomplished...
I hope the point of this mail is to make Zope better and not to be considered as an accusation or an attack...
Zope need and can become better :)
zope.org HowTos are something between 1000 and 3000 documents. Everyone wanting to help to review and consolidate that information is welcome to send a note to webmaster@zope.org or to the zope-web mailing list (zope-web@zope.org). Michael -- http://zope.org/Members/d2m http://planetzope.org
Michael Haubenwallner wrote:
Nicolas Georgakopoulos wrote:
Here are my ideas to make Zope 3 the most successful framework ever:
Make them love Zope at the very first look:
* Make installing Zope a double-click or one-command-only experience and * offer a 30 minutes tutorial of programming an useful application including an audiovisual show for an appetizer that offers a feeling of success.
Enable the beginners:
* Easy to read and understand ‹ but still complete and current ‹ documentation is a must. * Avoid cluttering everything about Zope across articles, blogs, chats, mailing lists and wikis. Keep everything available and searchable at one central location.
I think "Make them love Zope at the very first look" and "Enable the Beginner" is on the same issue , I consider my self a beginner and trying to learn Zope I found many resources on google but a little bit of "chaos" , a better united source from the central Zope (Zope.org) it is required. I is a shame to know that there is a big help and a big community but not so well united and organized. Zope Book 2.7 it is in the same stage it was before 3,5 months ago when I started to reading it with some example only in DTML when Zope encourage leaving DTML for ZPT. The how-to section (http://www.zope.org/Documentation/How-To/index_html?&sort_on=modified&sort_o...) have *_only_* 3 post's for the year *2005 *!!! A Zope editor is a must or to find another way more flexible ! external editor product it is steel a way but a ugly way in my opinion (no offense for the product) , to add numbers on every line when coding it will be a big step.
I don't want to blame the official Zope team , the are running with hard work for sure. It is just that Zope can do so much thing's compare to other products out there but important details have been left unaccomplished...
I hope the point of this mail is to make Zope better and not to be considered as an accusation or an attack...
Zope need and can become better :)
zope.org HowTos are something between 1000 and 3000 documents. Everyone wanting to help to review and consolidate that information is welcome to send a note to webmaster@zope.org or to the zope-web mailing list (zope-web@zope.org).
Michael
I think you are wrong , on Zope site it say's -> Zope How-Tos 1- 20 of 300 cheers...
zope.org HowTos are something between 1000 and 3000 documents. Everyone wanting to help to review and consolidate that information is welcome to send a note to webmaster@zope.org or to the zope-web mailing list (zope-web@zope.org).
Michael
I think you are wrong , on Zope site it say's -> Zope How-Tos 1- 20 of 300
i think that was remnants of the migration way back when it's hardcoded, then. what's needed to spruce up the howtos, or zope.org? iirc, there was a closed group with that mission setup some time back cheers...
_______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
-- http://myzope.kedai.com.my - my-zope org
Bakhtiar A Hamid wrote:
zope.org HowTos are something between 1000 and 3000 documents. Everyone wanting to help to review and consolidate that information is welcome to send a note to webmaster@zope.org or to the zope-web mailing list (zope-web@zope.org).
Michael
I think you are wrong , on Zope site it say's -> Zope How-Tos 1- 20 of 300
i think that was remnants of the migration way back when
it's hardcoded, then.
what's needed to spruce up the howtos, or zope.org? iirc, there was a closed group with that mission setup some time back
The batch limit is set to '300', limiting the display of a sorted result set. Here are numbers from the database: old style howtos : 1986 (created until 2003) new style howtos : 251 (created after the transition to plone) new published howtos : 90 The 'closed group' dissolved a while ago. Hth, Michael -- http://zope.org/Members/d2m http://planetzope.org
On 12/24/05, Michael Haubenwallner <michael@d2m.at> wrote:
The batch limit is set to '300', limiting the display of a sorted result set.
Here are numbers from the database: old style howtos : 1986 (created until 2003) new style howtos : 251 (created after the transition to plone) new published howtos : 90
The 'closed group' dissolved a while ago.
that's sad(?) anything came out of the group? i think we need to do to zope.org what we did to zope2. ignore and build. leave it as old.zope.organd link from the new site. happy holidays Hth,
Michael
-- http://zope.org/Members/d2m http://planetzope.org
_______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
-- http://myzope.kedai.com.my - my-zope org
Bakhtiar A Hamid wrote:
On 12/24/05, *Michael Haubenwallner* <michael@d2m.at <mailto:michael@d2m.at>> wrote:
>
The batch limit is set to '300', limiting the display of a sorted result set.
Here are numbers from the database: old style howtos : 1986 (created until 2003) new style howtos : 251 (created after the transition to plone) new published howtos : 90
The 'closed group' dissolved a while ago.
that's sad(?) anything came out of the group? i think we need to do to zope.org <http://zope.org> what we did to zope2. ignore and build. leave it as old.zope.org <http://old.zope.org> and link from the new site.
happy holidays
Hth, Michael
Ignore and build , I agree too :-) Merry Christmas from Greece !
On Sun, 2005-12-25 at 10:03 +0800, Bakhtiar A Hamid wrote:
The 'closed group' dissolved a while ago.
that's sad(?) anything came out of the group? i think we need to do to zope.org what we did to zope2. ignore and build. leave it as old.zope.org and link from the new site.
That was the plan. I'd like to revive the plan. :) Volunteers? Andrew
Andrew Sawyers wrote:
On Sun, 2005-12-25 at 10:03 +0800, Bakhtiar A Hamid wrote:
The 'closed group' dissolved a while ago.
that's sad(?) anything came out of the group? i think we need to do to zope.org what we did to zope2. ignore and build. leave it as old.zope.org and link from the new site.
That was the plan. I'd like to revive the plan. :) Volunteers? Andrew
Count me in Michael -- http://zope.org/Members/d2m http://planetzope.org
On 12/27/05, Michael Haubenwallner <michael@d2m.at> wrote:
Andrew Sawyers wrote:
On Sun, 2005-12-25 at 10:03 +0800, Bakhtiar A Hamid wrote:
The 'closed group' dissolved a while ago.
that's sad(?) anything came out of the group? i think we need to do to zope.org what we did to zope2. ignore and build. leave it as old.zope.org and link from the new site.
That was the plan. I'd like to revive the plan. :) Volunteers? Andrew
Count me in
Michael
me three. i;ll try and find time. and also find where i can help --
http://zope.org/Members/d2m http://planetzope.org
_______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
-- http://myzope.kedai.com.my - my-zope org
Bakhtiar A Hamid wrote:
On 12/27/05, Michael Haubenwallner <michael@d2m.at> wrote:
Andrew Sawyers wrote:
On Sun, 2005-12-25 at 10:03 +0800, Bakhtiar A Hamid wrote:
The 'closed group' dissolved a while ago.
that's sad(?) anything came out of the group? i think we need to do to zope.org what we did to zope2. ignore and build. leave it as old.zope.org and link from the new site.
That was the plan. I'd like to revive the plan. :) Volunteers? Andrew
Count me in
Michael
me three. i;ll try and find time. and also find where i can help
Thats great, please join us in IRC (irc.freenode.net) at #zope-web Michael -- http://zope.org/Members/d2m http://planetzope.org
what's needed to spruce up the howtos, or zope.org? iirc, there was a closed group with that mission setup some time back
It wasn't really 'closed' - just 'well defined'. It fell apart, due to both of the committed developers backing out due to commitments they couldn't get around. I am still highly interested in helping lead this and actually doing work if we had 1 or 2 others who were committed. We also already have a designer put in some time to assist with a "nicer" look and feel who is still willing to work on this. The goal was not to just 'spruce' things up, but rather change the focus of the site from everything to just Zope the software, Zope Documentation, and Zope Community. I was just talking about this on Christmas with someone, so there's still hope it will happen. Andrew Sawyers
On 12/22/05, Gert Thiel <GertThiel@gmx.net> wrote:
Here are my ideas to make Zope 3 the most successful framework ever:
And although all good ideas, most won't help. Why? Because they are (mostly) about improving the product one way or another. And to be quite honest, Zope 3 is hone heck of a product, that is already improved beyond most framework users wet dreams. We don't need improvements, we need hype. Zope Corp/Zope Foundation needs to get somebody to make a website that works, is easily navigatable and, most important of all: Hypes the heck out of Zope 3. Where is the flash intro? Hmm? Right, I can hear you all go "uuuuurgh", but the fact is that it works. A good flash demo telling people why Zope 3 is the best thing ever is without any doubt from my part, the most significant piece missing to make Zope 3 a success. And, I suck at flash, so I aint doing it! (Unless I get payed silly :-D ).
* Make installing Zope a double-click or one-command-only experience and
Well, it pretty much is...
* offer a 30 minutes tutorial of programming an useful application including an audiovisual show for an appetizer that offers a feeling of success.
This is a good one. More effort than the Flash intro/demo, and not very useful without it (because people won't download it).
Bribe the managers:
* Include Microsoft SQL-Server and Oracle relational database access.
Product improvement. Managers of this type have a budget, and by projects, not database access. The access is included in the budget for the project, and hence, not a problem.
* Include powerful XML processing facilities and
See above.
* include everything necessary and useful to build or use web services.
See above.
Enable the beginners:
* Easy to read and understand ‹ but still complete and current ‹ documentation is a must.
I think Zope 3 is pretty good at this point. A quick tutorial is missing, but you covered that in your first point.
* Avoid cluttering everything about Zope across articles, blogs, chats, mailing lists and wikis. Keep everything available and searchable at one central location.
Good idea. But we tried that and that didn't work. Time to try again? Maybe we can merge some stuff into separate servers but using the same main domain? So that say, zopewiki is also available at wiki.zope.org? -- Lennart Regebro, Nuxeo http://www.nuxeo.com/ CPS Content Management http://www.cps-project.org/
Do we know.... Is the Zope community growing or shrinking? Is there even a problem? Is Python growing or shrinking? Is there any connection? Zope.org seems to have been built as a community center, with accounts/ 3rd party add-ons etc. Is it working. RubyonRails.com has none of this functionality. Perhaps a GetZope.com site, similar to GetFirefox.com is in order, that provides a very small amount of "get started" information. Two Cents, -Jon Gert Thiel wrote:
Dear friends.
A few days ago the Ruby on Rails development team published the 1.0 release. At that occasion the Zope fans are reminded how far Zope fell far behind in terms of attention and recognized widespread.
Python has batteries included. Zope is a power plant. But still everyone speaks of Django, Turbogears or Ruby on Rails. Even if they talk about the shortcommings of J2EE.
Some of the best content management systems are build using Zope 2. CPS, ZMS and my favourite: Plone. And Typo3 gets even more attention. Why?
Because we failed. We aren't marketing Zope at all. Have a look at zope.org. Do you think, that any CEO will stay at that site more than 10 seconds? Have a look at rubyonrails.org and cry. Zope 3.2 will be delivered soon. Have any look at zope.org < where isS( You got it.
To a certain extent Zope 2 was attracting like a nuclear power plant. Whenever I start programming with Zope 2, latest for Plone, I can feel its power before even diving into it much, but I'm alarmed of its pitfalls at the very same time. So all my hopes are with Zope 3 which enabled me without hurting me yet. Will I get a truly powerful replacement for J2EE?
Here are my ideas to make Zope 3 the most successful framework ever:
Make them love Zope at the very first look:
* Make installing Zope a double-click or one-command-only experience and * offer a 30 minutes tutorial of programming an useful application including an audiovisual show for an appetizer that offers a feeling of success.
Bribe the managers:
* Include Microsoft SQL-Server and Oracle relational database access. * Include powerful XML processing facilities and * include everything necessary and useful to build or use web services.
Enable the beginners:
* Easy to read and understand < but still complete and current < documentation is a must. * Avoid cluttering everything about Zope across articles, blogs, chats, mailing lists and wikis. Keep everything available and searchable at one central location.
Remember: The power of Ruby on Rails doesn't come from either Ruby or the framework but from its community.
And < of course < make Zope 4 even better.
Regards,
Gert
http://www.gertthiel.de/blog/drafts/ivory-tower/
_______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
-- Jonathan Cyr http://www.cyr.info http://www.weddingweblog.com cyrj@cyr.info
Yes, we need hype! And a "hot" looking site, WITH Web 2.0 features. Many of these frameworks are providing AJAX capabilities, simple graphics and data/object access without page reloads. (like I am using with Dojo right now) What does Zope not provide these features "built-in"? And yes, about the central docs. A ton of info is available right on Zope.org, but I always find more on individual blogs or other google searches. Zope.org could use a more intuitive help finder maybe. Actually, how aboot a Zopedigg? Diggs on just Zope articles and such, with comments? That would be hot! Better and easier than a wiki, IMHO. The one thing I would say is, from my perspective, when I have info to share on Zope work I have done, I like to post on my blog or site, not Zope's. Because I like to provide a demo or maybe include things *my* way. Having a ZopeDigg would allow us to post our work in a central repository, and look a little flashy too. The video tutorial should be made. Like RoR and Symfony-project have. It shows beginners how easy something is to do. And they will download it. I did. Also, I know this will get some people flaming probably, but Zope needs more hype for DTML. I KNOW! 99% of you hate it. But every time I show someone how to do it, their eyes light up. It's very simple coming from ASP or PHP, once you see it in action. ZPT is just plain confusing to me. I hate to say this too, but I am doing much more in PHP these days, partly due to the fact that there exists a large "dtml sucks" attitude in the community. And even though it has been said that DTML is not going away, if there is no hype about it, then it might. And I don't want to keep using Zope without it. Yes, yes, I know DTML has many disadvantages, but it also has many advantages. I wish there were more hype about it. So, here's a big "wish" of mine too. What if Zope was a *complete* framework, including a web based IDE? I dont mean the ZMI, which is hot in itself, but a full featured AJAX-ish IDE, built upon Zope. Drag and drop widgets and properties even. It would also have full database access built in. Mysql, Mssql, Oracle, Postgresql, all ready to go, without needing to purchase and configure a database adapter. This would provide a web based, development framework like .NET using Visual Studio. Only this would work on Zope, and therefore would run on Linux OR Windows! It doesnt have to be so comprehensive like VS, but simple form editor with properties and XMLHTTPRequest capability would be great. I think we would have a KILLER APP! Well, maybe I am dreamin? Just thought I'd give my 2 cents. Oh, and is the community growing? Well, I think the Netcraft surveys say a lot. I know this isnt definitive, but I think it's great info. Since I started using Zope in 2002, the sites using Zope have grown from 6000 to 42000. Cool! 42000+ Sites in 2006 http://survey.netcraft.com/Reports/0601/ 6000+ Sites in 2002 http://survey.netcraft.com/Reports/0201/ Happy new year everyone! On 1/3/06, Jonathan Cyr <cyrj@cyr.info> wrote:
Do we know.... Is the Zope community growing or shrinking? Is there even a problem? Is Python growing or shrinking? Is there any connection?
Zope.org seems to have been built as a community center, with accounts/ 3rd party add-ons etc. Is it working. RubyonRails.com has none of this functionality.
Perhaps a GetZope.com site, similar to GetFirefox.com is in order, that provides a very small amount of "get started" information.
Two Cents,
-Jon
Gert Thiel wrote:
Dear friends.
A few days ago the Ruby on Rails development team published the 1.0 release. At that occasion the Zope fans are reminded how far Zope fell far behind in terms of attention and recognized widespread.
Python has batteries included. Zope is a power plant. But still everyone speaks of Django, Turbogears or Ruby on Rails. Even if they talk about the shortcommings of J2EE.
Some of the best content management systems are build using Zope 2. CPS, ZMS and my favourite: Plone. And Typo3 gets even more attention. Why?
Because we failed. We aren't marketing Zope at all. Have a look at zope.org. Do you think, that any CEO will stay at that site more than 10 seconds? Have a look at rubyonrails.org and cry. Zope 3.2 will be delivered soon. Have any look at zope.org ‹ where isŠ You got it.
To a certain extent Zope 2 was attracting like a nuclear power plant. Whenever I start programming with Zope 2, latest for Plone, I can feel its power before even diving into it much, but I'm alarmed of its pitfalls at the very same time. So all my hopes are with Zope 3 which enabled me without hurting me yet. Will I get a truly powerful replacement for J2EE?
Here are my ideas to make Zope 3 the most successful framework ever:
Make them love Zope at the very first look:
* Make installing Zope a double-click or one-command-only experience and * offer a 30 minutes tutorial of programming an useful application including an audiovisual show for an appetizer that offers a feeling of success.
Bribe the managers:
* Include Microsoft SQL-Server and Oracle relational database access. * Include powerful XML processing facilities and * include everything necessary and useful to build or use web services.
Enable the beginners:
* Easy to read and understand ‹ but still complete and current ‹ documentation is a must. * Avoid cluttering everything about Zope across articles, blogs, chats, mailing lists and wikis. Keep everything available and searchable at one central location.
Remember: The power of Ruby on Rails doesn't come from either Ruby or the framework but from its community.
And ‹ of course ‹ make Zope 4 even better.
Regards,
Gert
http://www.gertthiel.de/blog/drafts/ivory-tower/
_______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.orghttp://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
-- Jonathan Cyr http://www.cyr.infohttp://www.weddingweblog.comcyrj@cyr.info
_______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
-- Greg Fischer 1st Byte Solutions http://www.1stbyte.com
Greg Fischer wrote:
Yes, we need hype! And a "hot" looking site, WITH Web 2.0 features.
Many of these frameworks are providing AJAX capabilities, simple graphics and data/object access without page reloads. (like I am using with Dojo right now) What does Zope not provide these features "built-in"?
And yes, about the central docs. A ton of info is available right on Zope.org <http://Zope.org>, but I always find more on individual blogs or other google searches. Zope.org <http://Zope.org> could use a more intuitive help finder maybe. Actually, how aboot a Zopedigg? Diggs on just Zope articles and such, with comments? That would be hot! Better and easier than a wiki, IMHO. The one thing I would say is, from my perspective, when I have info to share on Zope work I have done, I like to post on my blog or site, not Zope's. Because I like to provide a demo or maybe include things *my* way. Having a ZopeDigg would allow us to post our work in a central repository, and look a little flashy too.
The video tutorial should be made. Like RoR and Symfony-project have. It shows beginners how easy something is to do. And they will download it. I did.
Also, I know this will get some people flaming probably, but Zope needs more hype for DTML. I KNOW! 99% of you hate it. But every time I show someone how to do it, their eyes light up. It's very simple coming from ASP or PHP, once you see it in action. ZPT is just plain confusing to me. I hate to say this too, but I am doing much more in PHP these days, partly due to the fact that there exists a large "dtml sucks" attitude in the community. And even though it has been said that DTML is not going away, if there is no hype about it, then it might. And I don't want to keep using Zope without it. Yes, yes, I know DTML has many disadvantages, but it also has many advantages. I wish there were more hype about it.
So, here's a big "wish" of mine too. What if Zope was a *complete* framework, including a web based IDE? I dont mean the ZMI, which is hot in itself, but a full featured AJAX-ish IDE, built upon Zope. Drag and drop widgets and properties even. It would also have full database access built in. Mysql, Mssql, Oracle, Postgresql, all ready to go, without needing to purchase and configure a database adapter. This would provide a web based, development framework like .NET using Visual Studio. Only this would work on Zope, and therefore would run on Linux OR Windows! It doesnt have to be so comprehensive like VS, but simple form editor with properties and XMLHTTPRequest capability would be great. I think we would have a KILLER APP!
Well, maybe I am dreamin? Just thought I'd give my 2 cents.
Hi! concerning the web based IDE I'm currently working on something like what you describe for Zope3. You should get on the z3lab-list. You can also get a blog on z3lab.org and post flash animations: http://www.z3lab.org/ http://lists.nuxeo.com/mailman/listinfo/z3lab Regards /JM
To pour fuel on the flames... +1 DTML -1 ZPT Why... 1) For 'quick and dirty' demos and rapid application prototyping DTML does the trick (yes, even including ZClasses), it is fast, easy, reasonably robust and it works! 2) For 'heavy lifting' (ie. intense computation, high loads, etc.) I prefer a 'product' approach. 3) For client-side functionality/control I prefer an AJAX approach using a combination of javascript/HTML/XHTML/XHTML-MP plus server-side python scripts/external methods/products. ZPT is a bit of a hybrid which increases overhead and doesn't really bring any new functionality to the table (for my applications and environment). Yes, for separating (well, mostly separating) content from display formatting ZPT is one possible solution, but the divorce of content and presentation is better achieved with an AJAX type of approach. I think Zope beginners would be better off using DTML (easier to learn, user's get quicker results and therefore have more satisfaction with Zope as a development platform), and then 'serious' development should be done using an AJAX approach with Zope 3 - the way of the future imho :-) If we had to make a choice for the future I would prefer Zope 2 + DTML and Zope 3 + AJAX (and consign ZPT to the 'good idea at the time' bin). Possibly, in the distant future, AJAX utilities/ides will exist which will make rapid prototyping and 'quick & dirty' demos feasible, in which case Zope 2 + DTML could fade into happy history. Just my 1-1/2 cents. Jonathan ----- Original Message ----- From: Greg Fischer Cc: zope@zope.org Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2006 5:06 PM Subject: Re: [Zope] Leave the ivory tower now! Yes, we need hype! And a "hot" looking site, WITH Web 2.0 features. Many of these frameworks are providing AJAX capabilities, simple graphics and data/object access without page reloads. (like I am using with Dojo right now) What does Zope not provide these features "built-in"? And yes, about the central docs. A ton of info is available right on Zope.org, but I always find more on individual blogs or other google searches. Zope.org could use a more intuitive help finder maybe. Actually, how aboot a Zopedigg? Diggs on just Zope articles and such, with comments? That would be hot! Better and easier than a wiki, IMHO. The one thing I would say is, from my perspective, when I have info to share on Zope work I have done, I like to post on my blog or site, not Zope's. Because I like to provide a demo or maybe include things *my* way. Having a ZopeDigg would allow us to post our work in a central repository, and look a little flashy too. The video tutorial should be made. Like RoR and Symfony-project have. It shows beginners how easy something is to do. And they will download it. I did. Also, I know this will get some people flaming probably, but Zope needs more hype for DTML. I KNOW! 99% of you hate it. But every time I show someone how to do it, their eyes light up. It's very simple coming from ASP or PHP, once you see it in action. ZPT is just plain confusing to me. I hate to say this too, but I am doing much more in PHP these days, partly due to the fact that there exists a large "dtml sucks" attitude in the community. And even though it has been said that DTML is not going away, if there is no hype about it, then it might. And I don't want to keep using Zope without it. Yes, yes, I know DTML has many disadvantages, but it also has many advantages. I wish there were more hype about it. So, here's a big "wish" of mine too. What if Zope was a *complete* framework, including a web based IDE? I dont mean the ZMI, which is hot in itself, but a full featured AJAX-ish IDE, built upon Zope. Drag and drop widgets and properties even. It would also have full database access built in. Mysql, Mssql, Oracle, Postgresql, all ready to go, without needing to purchase and configure a database adapter. This would provide a web based, development framework like .NET using Visual Studio. Only this would work on Zope, and therefore would run on Linux OR Windows! It doesnt have to be so comprehensive like VS, but simple form editor with properties and XMLHTTPRequest capability would be great. I think we would have a KILLER APP! Well, maybe I am dreamin? Just thought I'd give my 2 cents. Oh, and is the community growing? Well, I think the Netcraft surveys say a lot. I know this isnt definitive, but I think it's great info. Since I started using Zope in 2002, the sites using Zope have grown from 6000 to 42000. Cool! 42000+ Sites in 2006 http://survey.netcraft.com/Reports/0601/ 6000+ Sites in 2002 http://survey.netcraft.com/Reports/0201/ Happy new year everyone! On 1/3/06, Jonathan Cyr <cyrj@cyr.info> wrote: Do we know.... Is the Zope community growing or shrinking? Is there even a problem? Is Python growing or shrinking? Is there any connection? Zope.org seems to have been built as a community center, with accounts/ 3rd party add-ons etc. Is it working. RubyonRails.com has none of this functionality. Perhaps a GetZope.com site, similar to GetFirefox.com is in order, that provides a very small amount of "get started" information. Two Cents, -Jon Gert Thiel wrote: Dear friends.A few days ago the Ruby on Rails development team published the 1.0 release.At that occasion the Zope fans are reminded how far Zope fell far behind interms of attention and recognized widespread. Python has batteries included. Zope is a power plant. But still everyonespeaks of Django, Turbogears or Ruby on Rails. Even if they talk about theshortcommings of J2EE.Some of the best content management systems are build using Zope 2. CPS, ZMS and my favourite: Plone. And Typo3 gets even more attention. Why?Because we failed. We aren't marketing Zope at all. Have a look at zope.org.Do you think, that any CEO will stay at that site more than 10 seconds? Havea look at rubyonrails.org and cry. Zope 3.2 will be delivered soon. Have anylook at zope.org ‹ where isŠ You got it.To a certain extent Zope 2 was attracting like a nuclear power plant. Whenever I start programming with Zope 2, latest for Plone, I can feel itspower before even diving into it much, but I'm alarmed of its pitfalls atthe very same time. So all my hopes are with Zope 3 which enabled me without hurting me yet. Will I get a truly powerful replacement for J2EE?Here are my ideas to make Zope 3 the most successful framework ever:Make them love Zope at the very first look: * Make installing Zope a double-click or one-command-only experience and * offer a 30 minutes tutorial of programming an useful application including an audiovisual show for an appetizer that offers a feeling of success.Bribe the managers: * Include Microsoft SQL-Server and Oracle relational database access. * Include powerful XML processing facilities and * include everything necessary and useful to build or use web services.Enable the beginners: * Easy to read and understand ‹ but still complete and current ‹ documentation is a must. * Avoid cluttering everything about Zope across articles, blogs, chats, mailing lists and wikis. Keep everything available and searchable at one central location. Remember: The power of Ruby on Rails doesn't come from either Ruby or theframework but from its community.And ‹ of course ‹ make Zope 4 even better.Regards, Gert http://www.gertthiel.de/blog/drafts/ivory-tower/ _______________________________________________Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ) -- Jonathan Cyrhttp://www.cyr.info http://www.weddingweblog.com cyrj@cyr.info _______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ) -- Greg Fischer 1st Byte Solutions http://www.1stbyte.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Jonathan wrote:
To pour fuel on the flames...
+1 DTML -1 ZPT
Why...
1) For 'quick and dirty' demos and rapid application prototyping DTML does the trick (yes, even including ZClasses), it is fast, easy, reasonably robust and it works!
2) For 'heavy lifting' (ie. intense computation, high loads, etc.) I prefer a 'product' approach.
3) For client-side functionality/control I prefer an AJAX approach using a combination of javascript/HTML/XHTML/XHTML-MP plus server-side python scripts/external methods/products.
ZPT is a bit of a hybrid which increases overhead and doesn't really bring any new functionality to the table (for my applications and environment). Yes, for separating (well, mostly separating) content from display formatting ZPT is one possible solution, but the divorce of content and presentation is better achieved with an AJAX type of approach.
I think Zope beginners would be better off using DTML (easier to learn, user's get quicker results and therefore have more satisfaction with Zope as a development platform), and then 'serious' development should be done using an AJAX approach with Zope 3 - the way of the future imho :-)
If we had to make a choice for the future I would prefer Zope 2 + DTML and Zope 3 + AJAX (and consign ZPT to the 'good idea at the time' bin). Possibly, in the distant future, AJAX utilities/ides will exist which will make rapid prototyping and 'quick & dirty' demos feasible, in which case Zope 2 + DTML could fade into happy history.
Just my 1-1/2 cents.
Jonathan
----- Origin
Think about it: we argue about Z Classes vs DTML vs ZPT + python scripts vs Products. Its all good. Zope + 1 :-) David
Jonathan escribió:
To pour fuel on the flames...
+1 DTML -1 ZPT
Why...
1) For 'quick and dirty' demos and rapid application prototyping DTML does the trick (yes, even including ZClasses), it is fast, easy, reasonably robust and it works!
2) For 'heavy lifting' (ie. intense computation, high loads, etc.) I prefer a 'product' approach.
3) For client-side functionality/control I prefer an AJAX approach using a combination of javascript/HTML/XHTML/XHTML-MP plus server-side python scripts/external methods/products.
ZPT is a bit of a hybrid which increases overhead and doesn't really bring any new functionality to the table (for my applications and environment). Yes, for separating (well, mostly separating) content from display formatting ZPT is one possible solution, but the divorce of content and presentation is better achieved with an AJAX type of approach.
I think Zope beginners would be better off using DTML (easier to learn, user's get quicker results and therefore have more satisfaction with Zope as a development platform), and then 'serious' development should be done using an AJAX approach with Zope 3 - the way of the future imho :-)
If we had to make a choice for the future I would prefer Zope 2 + DTML and Zope 3 + AJAX (and consign ZPT to the 'good idea at the time' bin). Possibly, in the distant future, AJAX utilities/ides will exist which will make rapid prototyping and 'quick & dirty' demos feasible, in which case Zope 2 + DTML could fade into happy history.
Just my 1-1/2 cents.
Jonathan
----- Original Message ----- *From:* Greg Fischer <mailto:retheoff@gmail.com> *Cc:* zope@zope.org <mailto:zope@zope.org> *Sent:* Sunday, January 08, 2006 5:06 PM *Subject:* Re: [Zope] Leave the ivory tower now!
Yes, we need hype! And a "hot" looking site, WITH Web 2.0 features.
Many of these frameworks are providing AJAX capabilities, simple graphics and data/object access without page reloads. (like I am using with Dojo right now) What does Zope not provide these features "built-in"?
And yes, about the central docs. A ton of info is available right on Zope.org <http://Zope.org>, but I always find more on individual blogs or other google searches. Zope.org <http://Zope.org>could use a more intuitive help finder maybe. Actually, how aboot a Zopedigg? Diggs on just Zope articles and such, with comments? That would be hot! Better and easier than a wiki, IMHO. The one thing I would say is, from my perspective, when I have info to share on Zope work I have done, I like to post on my blog or site, not Zope's. Because I like to provide a demo or maybe include things *my* way. Having a ZopeDigg would allow us to post our work in a central repository, and look a little flashy too.
The video tutorial should be made. Like RoR and Symfony-project have. It shows beginners how easy something is to do. And they will download it. I did.
Also, I know this will get some people flaming probably, but Zope needs more hype for DTML. I KNOW! 99% of you hate it. But every time I show someone how to do it, their eyes light up. It's very simple coming from ASP or PHP, once you see it in action. ZPT is just plain confusing to me. I hate to say this too, but I am doing much more in PHP these days, partly due to the fact that there exists a large "dtml sucks" attitude in the community. And even though it has been said that DTML is not going away, if there is no hype about it, then it might. And I don't want to keep using Zope without it. Yes, yes, I know DTML has many disadvantages, but it also has many advantages. I wish there were more hype about it.
So, here's a big "wish" of mine too. What if Zope was a *complete* framework, including a web based IDE? I dont mean the ZMI, which is hot in itself, but a full featured AJAX-ish IDE, built upon Zope. Drag and drop widgets and properties even. It would also have full database access built in. Mysql, Mssql, Oracle, Postgresql, all ready to go, without needing to purchase and configure a database adapter. This would provide a web based, development framework like .NET using Visual Studio. Only this would work on Zope, and therefore would run on Linux OR Windows! It doesnt have to be so comprehensive like VS, but simple form editor with properties and XMLHTTPRequest capability would be great. I think we would have a KILLER APP!
Well, maybe I am dreamin? Just thought I'd give my 2 cents.
Oh, and is the community growing? Well, I think the Netcraft surveys say a lot. I know this isnt definitive, but I think it's great info. Since I started using Zope in 2002, the sites using Zope have grown from 6000 to 42000. Cool!
42000+ Sites in 2006 http://survey.netcraft.com/Reports/0601/
6000+ Sites in 2002 http://survey.netcraft.com/Reports/0201/ <http://survey.netcraft.com/Reports/0201/>
Happy new year everyone!
On 1/3/06, *Jonathan Cyr* <cyrj@cyr.info <mailto:cyrj@cyr.info>> wrote:
Do we know.... Is the Zope community growing or shrinking? Is there even a problem? Is Python growing or shrinking? Is there any connection?
Zope.org <http://Zope.org> seems to have been built as a community center, with accounts/ 3rd party add-ons etc. Is it working. RubyonRails.com has none of this functionality.
Perhaps a GetZope.com site, similar to GetFirefox.com is in order, that provides a very small amount of "get started" information.
Two Cents,
-Jon
Gert Thiel wrote:
Dear friends.
A few days ago the Ruby on Rails development team published the 1.0 release. At that occasion the Zope fans are reminded how far Zope fell far behind in terms of attention and recognized widespread.
Python has batteries included. Zope is a power plant. But still everyone speaks of Django, Turbogears or Ruby on Rails. Even if they talk about the shortcommings of J2EE.
Some of the best content management systems are build using Zope 2. CPS, ZMS
and my favourite: Plone. And Typo3 gets even more attention. Why?
Because we failed. We aren't marketing Zope at all. Have a look at zope.org <http://zope.org>. Do you think, that any CEO will stay at that site more than 10 seconds? Have a look at rubyonrails.org <http://rubyonrails.org> and cry. Zope 3.2 will be delivered soon. Have any look at zope.org <http://zope.org> ‹ where isŠ You got it.
To a certain extent Zope 2 was attracting like a nuclear power plant.
Whenever I start programming with Zope 2, latest for Plone, I can feel its power before even diving into it much, but I'm alarmed of its pitfalls at the very same time. So all my hopes are with Zope 3 which enabled me without
hurting me yet. Will I get a truly powerful replacement for J2EE?
Here are my ideas to make Zope 3 the most successful framework ever:
Make them love Zope at the very first look:
* Make installing Zope a double-click or one-command-only experience and
* offer a 30 minutes tutorial of programming an useful application including an audiovisual show for an appetizer that offers a feeling of success.
Bribe the managers:
* Include Microsoft SQL-Server and Oracle relational database access.
* Include powerful XML processing facilities and * include everything necessary and useful to build or use web services.
Enable the beginners:
* Easy to read and understand ‹ but still complete and current ‹
documentation is a must. * Avoid cluttering everything about Zope across articles, blogs, chats, mailing lists and wikis. Keep everything available and searchable at one central location.
Remember: The power of Ruby on Rails doesn't come from either Ruby or the framework but from its community.
And ‹ of course ‹ make Zope 4 even better.
Regards,
Gert
http://www.gertthiel.de/blog/drafts/ivory-tower/
_______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org <mailto:Zope@zope.org> http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
-- Jonathan Cyr http://www.cyr.info http://www.weddingweblog.com cyrj@cyr.info <mailto:cyrj@cyr.info>
_______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org <mailto:Zope@zope.org> http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev <http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev>)
-- Greg Fischer 1st Byte Solutions http://www.1stbyte.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Well, I don't use DTML for anything I thing DTML and ZClasses will disapear someday but forget these words because there are DTML and ZClasses fans on the list Sorry! -- Mis Cosas http://blogs.sistes.net/Garito/
On 9 Jan 2006, at 13:29, Garito wrote: <13 KB deleted> Please clean up the subject line to remove your spam filter's markings before you reply. And don't quote a whole long discussion including countless message footers only to add one line to the bottom. Thanks! jens
On Mon, 2006-01-09 at 14:29 +0100, Garito wrote:
I thing DTML and ZClasses will disapear someday
You think, I hope :-) -- A powerfull GroupWare, CMS, CRM, ECM: CPS (Open Source & GPL). Opengroupware, SPIP, Plone, PhpBB, JetSpeed... are good: CPS is better. http://www.cps-project.org for downloads & documentation. Free hosting of CPS groupware: http://www.objectis.org.
Nicolas Georgakopoulos wrote:
Rakotomandimby Mihamina wrote:
On Mon, 2006-01-09 at 14:29 +0100, Garito wrote:
I thing DTML and ZClasses will disapear someday
You think, I hope :-)
I beg ;-) . _______________________________________________
Can someone explain why there is a continual battle between those who like dtml and those who like zpt? Surely the two can co-exist and then individual developers can choose which most suits them. Neither seems to be broken and both provide a valid experience for users, so let's be tolerant. :-) regards Garry
I took part in an old thread from here from several months ago: http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/zope/users/184052?do=post_view_threade... In there, some of the prominent members from this list came up with some great points on the DTML vs ZPT thing. All great stuff. However, I agree with you. While some of the ZPT fans say that DTML is broke and it sucks, and from there perspective it might, for some of us DTML is great and we have no desire to use ZPT. For us, DTML is not broke. I like what you said, be tolerant. Some of us don't see the limitations of DTML as something that is broken, or that it is not good. I don't think there is anything wrong with ZPT either, I simply don't have a use for it. Coexist? Yes, I hope they always do. Personally, I am doing more and more with PHP. There are multiple reasons for that, but partly it is due to a conception in the Zope community that DTML is bad, and as such, it might go away. The *hype* is all about ZPT, not DTML. I don't want to pursue a development platform that is a foundation of my applications on something that is going away, or even hinting to it. That might not be the case, might be totally false. But we cant deny the fact that if there is no hype, then there is no attention to it, and less people will use it and even less will support it. Now don't get me wrong about that last paragraph, I LOVE ZOPE! It just does things so easily that other environments have to struggle with. (Acquisition being one of them. Which also is something that people say is broke in some ways. It does do weird things sometimes. But if you know how to deal with them... ;) I hope my opinions are of help to others. (just remember, these are just my opinions, to those to might be ready to slam me for them. I intend no offense.) Greg On 1/16/06, garry <garry@schoolteachers.co.uk> wrote:
Nicolas Georgakopoulos wrote:
Rakotomandimby Mihamina wrote:
On Mon, 2006-01-09 at 14:29 +0100, Garito wrote:
I thing DTML and ZClasses will disapear someday
You think, I hope :-)
I beg ;-) . _______________________________________________
Can someone explain why there is a continual battle between those who like dtml and those who like zpt? Surely the two can co-exist and then individual developers can choose which most suits them. Neither seems to be broken and both provide a valid experience for users, so let's be tolerant. :-) regards Garry
_______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
-- Greg Fischer 1st Byte Solutions http://www.1stbyte.com
Greg Fischer schrieb: ...
I like what you said, be tolerant. Some of us don't see the limitations of DTML as something that is broken, or that it is not good. I don't
I see we have to improve teaching.
think there is anything wrong with ZPT either, I simply don't have a use for it. Coexist? Yes, I hope they always do.
Personally, I am doing more and more with PHP. There are multiple reasons for that, but partly it is due to a conception in the Zope community that DTML is bad, and as such, it might go away. The *hype* is all about ZPT, not DTML. I don't want to pursue a development platform
You can have PT with PHP too. Thats the cool part about it. Its really kinda standard. You have PT for Zope, PHP, Perl, Java, ...
that is a foundation of my applications on something that is going away, or even hinting to it. That might not be the case, might be totally false. But we cant deny the fact that if there is no hype, then there is no attention to it, and less people will use it and even less will support it.
I dont think thats the problem. I saw even weirder frameworks to work with. I guess we could introduce an even suckier template language and people would fall in love with it. BTW: ZPT is not, and was never a replacement for DTML. DTML would be replaced by application logic in python or python scripts and ZPT together. No matter if DTML is still there (and it will) we should find better ways to teach people how to easy develope in Zope. ++Tino
From Tino: -- No matter if DTML is still there (and it will) we should find better ways to teach people how to easy develope in Zope. --
Yes, you are right on all you mention. I didn't know PT was available in other environments/languages. Interesting. However, I still don't want to use them. Doesn't mean that someday I wont find a need and desire for it though. The reason I don't use PT is because I can do what I want without it. You mention that better ways to teach is needed, and you are right about that, but when someone like me has no desire to learn it, then it wont help. Worth noting though, I have looked at it briefly, and it confused the hell out of me. So, you may be right on anyway, because if it were explained in a such a way that caused me to just *get it*, then maybe I would go that route. I guess it's really a matter of, do I want to spend the time to learn something when I am loaded with other things to learn all the time, and why fix it if it isnt broke? (broke from my perspective ,that is.) Well, why can't there also be good training on DTML as well? (actually, I don't thinks it's all that bad anyway.) And, like Gary asked, why can't there be a peaceful coexistence bewteen the ZPT and DTML fans? The reason why I ask? Because there is commonley someone saying *DTML sucks, use PT* when users ask questions about DTML. (maybe not in those words, but you get the idea.) I don't know. I do appreciate your responses and thoughts Tino. (as you have always done for me in the past) Greg On 1/16/06, Tino Wildenhain <tino@wildenhain.de> wrote:
Greg Fischer schrieb: ...
I like what you said, be tolerant. Some of us don't see the limitations of DTML as something that is broken, or that it is not good. I don't
I see we have to improve teaching.
think there is anything wrong with ZPT either, I simply don't have a use for it. Coexist? Yes, I hope they always do.
Personally, I am doing more and more with PHP. There are multiple reasons for that, but partly it is due to a conception in the Zope community that DTML is bad, and as such, it might go away. The *hype* is all about ZPT, not DTML. I don't want to pursue a development platform
You can have PT with PHP too. Thats the cool part about it. Its really kinda standard. You have PT for Zope, PHP, Perl, Java, ...
that is a foundation of my applications on something that is going away, or even hinting to it. That might not be the case, might be totally false. But we cant deny the fact that if there is no hype, then there is no attention to it, and less people will use it and even less will support it.
I dont think thats the problem. I saw even weirder frameworks to work with. I guess we could introduce an even suckier template language and people would fall in love with it.
BTW: ZPT is not, and was never a replacement for DTML. DTML would be replaced by application logic in python or python scripts and ZPT together.
No matter if DTML is still there (and it will) we should find better ways to teach people how to easy develope in Zope.
++Tino
-- Greg Fischer 1st Byte Solutions http://www.1stbyte.com
participants (16)
-
Andrew Sawyers -
Bakhtiar A Hamid -
David H -
Garito -
garry -
Gert Thiel -
Greg Fischer -
Jean-Marc Orliaguet -
Jens Vagelpohl -
Jonathan -
Jonathan Cyr -
Lennart Regebro -
Michael Haubenwallner -
Nicolas Georgakopoulos -
Rakotomandimby Mihamina -
Tino Wildenhain