What you need to keep in mind, though, is the following: - For most html coders, path-based expressions are easier to grasp. The suggestion that DTML support this is actually quite a good idea, but as it is now, it doesn't. - Lower risk: code people have less worry about code being messed with by those that design. - Excessive tagging (dtml-with) for namespace traversal is confusing to non-programmers, who do not understand the intricacies of namespaces. A path is much more natural. - Most HTML developers do not validate their code. ZPT forces well-formed code to be used, and HTML developers not to have bad habits. - ZPT is well-documented for starters, but only if you know where to start looking. I have photocopies of the Dr. Dobbs article by Amos on ZPT (DDJ, Feb. 2002. I have used whiteout to correct one code-snippet typo on p. 69). I'm pretty sure that CMP sells back-issues of DDJ, it's worth geting a copy. Designers new to ZPT can look through this article to get a pretty quick start, IMHO. - ZPT is better for the interaction between coders and designers - both ways. I as a coder need to sometimes put a bit of functionality into a template, but I don't want to break the design. ZPT prevents techies from breaking design work. All these things considered, even if DTML is better for some individuals, ZPT is a better bet for an organization with diverse players and team projects. Sean -----Original Message----- From: Michael Lewis [mailto:michael@nichestaffing.com] Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 2:43 PM To: sean.upton@uniontrib.com Cc: hancock@anansispaceworks.com; zope@zope.org Subject: RE: [Zope] Re: Java re-invents DTML :-) On Tue, 2003-02-18 at 14:41, sean.upton@uniontrib.com wrote:

DTML just doesn't scale to non-techies or content people who are talented at HTML, but not 'programming.'

Sean

Being exactly what you are referring to, ie: someone who knows html, but not programming, I have to disagree. I tried Zope initially BECAUSE of it's tag based scripting language. I found it very easy to learn, and granted, I have encountered some syntax issues that were a problem for a while, but searching on zope.org and asking for direction from list members, everything has worked out just fine. I constructed 26 virtual sites with Zope and DTML. I have also looked at ZPT and found it rather confusing. I guess maybe it's just the way I'm wired or how I process information, in any case, since we're not all the same, I feel that continuing to offer both solutions would be the most appropriate course. I have never experienced any thing weird in using DTML except for using a dtml-in inside sendmail. Thanks to Dylan, that was easily fixed in a couple of minutes. Michael

-----Original Message----- From: Terry Hancock [mailto:hancock@anansispaceworks.com] Sent: Monday, February 17, 2003 7:07 PM To: zope@zope.org Subject: Re: [Zope] Re: Java re-invents DTML :-)

On Monday 17 February 2003 09:01 am, Chris Withers wrote:

...

Kevin Carlson wrote:

...

Come on folks. There's nothing wrong with supporting two templating languages. Quite honestly, dtml is much easier to learn for most and has it's place in application development

DTML has worked pretty much flawlessly for me. I have *NEVER* encountered any of the bugaboos about obfuscation or excessive code in it that have been claimed to be its faults. I use it in an admittedly complex presentation layer, and it provides excellent support for everything I need to do there. Python does the heavy lifting just fine, and I see no reason to change this part of my design.

...

...not unless some of its major current flaws are corrected. I think this is possible but I don't see the point of having two templating languages for one app server especially as we're now getting to the stage where you need to know _both_ before you can do anything useful with Zope :-(

Okay, I'm game, let's give ZPT the boot. It's a much more specialized language (HTML documents *only*), looks *really* obfuscated. Stuffs all its code into HTML attributes which is great for hiding the code away, but awful

if you want to see the document structure. DTML and Python work fine together, and are capable of handling the whole range of tasks I need. ZPT+Python cannot.

So ZPT is neither necessary nor sufficient.

Terry

-- Terry Hancock ( hancock at anansispaceworks.com ) Anansi Spaceworks http://www.anansispaceworks.com

_______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )

_______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ) -- Michael Lewis <michael@nichestaffing.com> NicheStaffing.com