Re: [Zope] - XML-style DTML code
From: "Christopher G. Petrilli" <petrilli@amber.org> My goal was to provide an obviously incomplete fix to the current problem of editing in HTML editors, which is what sparked this. The fix I proposed fixes that. Once I have a proper XML editor with full XSL support, it'll be easier to hypothesise about solutions, but until then, it's all hand waving.
The editing-in-HTML-editors will always be a problem with the current syntax, in my opinion, because (real code here, and code i'm not at all ashamed to have written): <TD><SELECT NAME="category"> <!--#in "Categories(active=1)"--> <OPTION VALUE="<!--#var label-->" <!--#if "(REQUEST.has_key('category') and category==label)"-->SELECTED<!--#/if-->
<!--#var label--></OPTION> <!--#/in--> </SELECT></TD>
will give just about any editor a headache. Cyberstudio, at a minimum, moves the comment tags outside of the <SELECT> statements. Dreamweaver might handle this a little better, but as you drag and drop the visual representation around it tends to get out of sync. This same problem hangs around ASP code with only one real visual editor existing (Drumbeat) - and most drumbeat generated sites I've been too have been as much fun as a root canal in slow motion. Since ColdFusion uses 'regular' tags, it's relatively easy to extend editors to handle them, albeit it usually in a limited fashion. And WebObjects, which introduces only one special tag into the HTML environment, requires another parser to handled the accompanying .wod file to be visual (.wod being full of statements similar to HTMLGen instances.) I don't even know what else is out there. I think Vignette's StoryServer can be used with DreamWeaver in the initial stages of design, but once StoryServers code starts getting into the HTML code they advise not going visual anymore (i think StoryServer uses *twitch* TCL in their pages). In any case, this is a very meaty problem - and not just for Zope. (or in other words "ohhhhh, it's so much worse than you think" :) stared-down-this-barrel-just-enough-times-to-even-copy-this-tired-sig'ly yrs, --jPS - - / jeffrey@Digicool.com - http://www.digicool.com/
Jeffrey P Shell wrote:
Since ColdFusion uses 'regular' tags, it's relatively easy to extend editors to handle them, albeit it usually in a limited fashion. <STUFF DELETED> I don't even know what else is out there. I think Vignette's StoryServer can be used with DreamWeaver in the initial stages of design, but once StoryServers code starts getting into the HTML code they advise not going visual anymore (i think StoryServer uses *twitch* TCL in their pages).
In any case, this is a very meaty problem - and not just for Zope. (or in other words "ohhhhh, it's so much worse than you think" :)
I think I should mention that Allaire Homesite/ColdFusion Studio is specifically built to allow its extension with new tagging schemes. It even has a markup language for that purpose (VTML: Visual Tool Markup Language), that lets you define proper nesting, pop-up tooltips etc. I'm not sure, but I think that the comment-style syntax might still be a problem, though. I think someone has created a VTML file for Perl, and I know that ASP is supported. This might be a good route to atract current ColdFusion users to Zope. Michael.
"Jeffrey P Shell" <jeffrey@Digicool.com> wrote, back on Feb 2: [snip]
The editing-in-HTML-editors will always be a problem with the current syntax, in my opinion, because (real code here, and code i'm not at all ashamed to have written):
<TD><SELECT NAME="category"> <!--#in "Categories(active=1)"--> <OPTION VALUE="<!--#var label-->" <!--#if "(REQUEST.has_key('category') and category==label)"-->SELECTED<!--#/if-->
<!--#var label--></OPTION> <!--#/in--> </SELECT></TD>
will give just about any editor a headache. Cyberstudio, at a minimum, moves the comment tags outside of the <SELECT> statements. Dreamweaver might handle this a little better, but as you drag and drop the visual representation around it tends to get out of sync.
This same problem hangs around ASP code with only one real visual editor existing (Drumbeat) - and most drumbeat generated sites I've been too have been as much fun as a root canal in slow motion.
Since ColdFusion uses 'regular' tags, it's relatively easy to extend editors to handle them, albeit it usually in a limited fashion.
[etc . . .] Since DTML already has at least two different syntaxes, would it be hard to give it another one, that used 'regular' tags? For getting- user-acceptance purposes it would be really good to work with as many HTML editors as possible, even lame ones. Having written the above, now I see that Jeffrey said it was a problem "with the current syntax" in his post. Sorry if I'm raising a point that has been covered in a more intelligent way already. There are just so darn many messages on this list . . . Wade Leftwich Okay Network Services, Ithaca NY tel 607-277-1334 fax 607-272-3612
participants (3)
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Jeffrey P Shell -
Michael Bernstein -
Wade Leftwich