FAQ Wiki and What happend @ O'Reilly Conference
hello, I'm working on quite a large java project and have been pushed back into ZOPE remission :( but I did have a chance to goto the O'Reilly Open Src Conference where I saw some pythoneers :) , lots of perl mongers :( and some fellow Zopistas. One of the things, that I'm not quite sure has been talked about was a small BOF on ZOPE. I will let it be up to DC to talk about the BOF in full if they want to but I ran into an instant problem that I'm trying to tackle over this weekend. main problem -- lots of mis-information and mis-communication. <stream_of_consciousness> One of the fellows there was from france and he had a problem w/ the ZOPE vernicular (Acquistion, Products, DTML Method, etc... ) I believe, I hope! this will result in some renaming schemes and maybe some changes in the basic ZOPE approach for newbies. to make things easier by having CONTENT, and TEMPLATEs is one approach. but the one that really really killed me was being in the lecture for the Content Mgmt System for saloon.com. they basically use a mixture of mod_perl, html::mason, java, xml and oracle for there entire publishing system. It is actually farily primitive.. and could have been easily tackled w/ ZOPE and forethoughts XML tools! but instead of having problems with the vernicular (which was indirectly mentioned.. he believed that ZOPE would take a python genius to extend... not quite how true that is, but its definetly a feeling when you first start out, or evaluate the product) he mis-interpreted focuses of Digital Creations nad ZOPE community. He thought that ZServer was written by Digital Creations. And if you didnt spend as much time as I have reading the mailing lists, you may misconstrue that the XML tools that are being worked on now are a DC/ZOPE effort (which isnt true at all, a majority of it is coming from the Community and Forethought). but.. XMLDocument was written by DC... so I could kinda see that the lecturer thought ZOPE was 're-inventing the wheel' as far as it came to basic tools, ZServer was concerned. this is not true. so, how I plan on aiding this (please contribute) is developing a FAQ for ZOPE this weekend, in my spare time. I hope it generates a 'one stop of FAQs' .. this is being addressed by ZDP (and I would use the ZDP) but I believe its kinda hanging off the zope.org and the 'general purspose - ZOPE' FAQs should be represented on the website. if you've answered a question more than twice, please put the question on the FAQ Wiki and then it can be addressed. zope.org does need a refactoring but I believe FAQs probably can not wait. and the lack of structured information is hurting ZOPE quite a bit. its fairly unorganized, mainly because it has been (click on Members:) a victim of its own success. so, if you've made it this far, step over to FAQ Wiki - http://www.zope.org/Members/runyaga/ZopeFAQs/FrontPage what is needed now more than anything is Questions, for the Wiki. what questions to newbies or product evaluators need to be more intrigued by ZOPE. what general information is asked over and over again in the mailing lists. the point of this is to be fairly short and concise. If I can get lots of information - I will edit it down into cohesive FAQ Answers. </stream_of_consciousness> sorry if I dont make much sense, I only have a few hours to work on this :( runyaga - runyaga_at_thisbox.com
Hi Alan, A couple of weeks ago I wrote to the list regarding setting up a FAQ for zope. It is in the beginning stages -> http://zope.faqts.com I've been busy so have only got so far as adding 11 questions. Take a look at http://python.faqts.com to get an idea on how the zope knowledge base could be developed, it has taken me two months to get the python knowledge base to the level it is at now, more than 700 questions with answers. I'm developing the python list be summarizing the newsgroup daily, for zope I'm intending on also working on this daily. I had a major project which I finished about 2 hours ago :-) ... as a relief I decided to start on the zope work, where I've found your mail. I'm not interested in creating something in direct opposition to what you are suggesting. Is there some way that we could work on this together, either together creating zope.faqts.com or my helping with http://www.zope.org/Members/runyaga/ZopeFAQs/FrontPage ? Things I like about FAQTs - the hierarchy of folders (information) - the ability to create folders and arrange content - the possibility to edit answers and maintain a version history - the admin stuff (for sending out summaries back to the mailing list) - ability to search questions and answers (works really well) This work I am doing 'off my own bat', FAQTs does pay me for python but _not_ zope, so I am able to do it somewhere else. Because I already have a mode of working off the FAQTs site it seemed reasonable to start the zope knowledge base off that site. But, mails like yours make me think about fragmenting resources and how useless that is, especially now when it seems resources are limited. Now, before I get too far into it, I want to make sure I've made the right decision... I don't want to compete with zdp.zope.org or with what you are suggesting. So, I want to help but where? Could we help each other: share questions and answers for all locations? Therefore taking advantage of the different features of the different sites? Is that a ridiculous suggestion? Perhaps initially it would work ... later re-assess? Otherwise, I'll work off whichever site the community would prefer... so community, please respond :-) Thanks, Fiona
hi Fiona, I have not been able to keep track with ZOPE as much as I use to - way too much stuff happening. I am interested in helping out the FAQTs but I would like to here what the ZDP people have to say as well, and the community at large. my main mission: to have a FAQ that is very general and broad about ZOPE itself. I have heard people saying DC is reinventing XML, HTTP Servers, why this ZODB? does it use ZSQL as ZODB query interface? and then there are these questions that consistently pop up - does ZODB have 2GB file size? and ZServer/ZODB threadedness. there are more but these are the ones I've asked myself (as well as heard reiterated).. so the FAQs have two fold goal: 1. knowledge at zope.org that can be reached through its Catalog (so important, it would be cool if ethan could share with us the 'most queried term' - that may shed some light) 2. as the basis of some type of Q/A FAQSheet (maybe a good name :) that is simply that - just questions and answers. when someone finds ZOPE.ORG its kinda messy. its understandable, but we have to cater to peoples piqued interest in the beginning. and it being well integrated into ZOPE.ORG (I believe is the only way for it to be found and accepted by the people looking for the FAQs) something like ok - I have found ZOPE, now here are some questions? why is it written in python? why ZServer - why not Apache? what is ZODB? What is ZOPE's metaphor? WhatIsZope for instance - just does not cut it. its all very buzzwordy and very high level. and very verbose to things people want to know. they dont want to go through a Zope Tour unless you've gotten more of there attention (w/ some FAQs). to me this just loses people: How does ZOPE work? Zope consists of a number components which work together to provide a complete yet flexible application server package. Zope includes an internet server, a transactional object database, a search engine, a web page templating system, a through the web development and management tool, and comprehensive extension support. Why ZOPE works the way it does is another matter, but why the decisions to do some of these things are never really explained. i.e. Why Python? that is also what I would like to get out in the open. people are having a very hard time swallowing the ZOPE idea strictly because its python. this is unfortunate, but NOT many people outside of the coding world have heard of python, yet :( so I believe ZOPE carries this burden as well. the answers on zope.org are valid and great, but they are a bit too terse for the neophyte wandering into the "Arguement Room":http://members.tripod.com/~HopUK/TPL/argue.wav I would like to have very simple, Q&A high level questions answered that seem to get misinterpreted because of the sheer volume of info. maybe this can provide a framework to build more literature for ZOPE.ORG - but the fact is ... people are seemingly getting the wrong answers to the right questions. and that is our, community fault. these are the reasons I would like to stay on zope.org to do this (but I can be persuaded to move it wherever): ZDP is 'hanging off Zope' so I dont believe its as effective. (search for FAQ on ZOPE.ORG) - I think ZDP and ZOPE.ORG's integration is very deep problem, spanning not only 'who provides documentation' but maybe both sites would have to be redesigned! FAQTS - is a bit sparse and is not well integrated into zope.org. (how do we migrate data into zope.org at a later date?) ZOPE.ORG - is where it would do the most good, I believe. if people search for 'faq' or 'faqs' (which is broken) - I would like them to be able to find this. I am really aiming for SimpleSimpleSimple layout, Q/A base approach. without getting long winded and without being too terse. but to lure people into asking more questions (and then maybe downloading the software and asking questions on the zope list :) and even limiting the amount of questions (over 30 questions is too much, and I will color syntax key words) but I'm writing this for the community so I will put it wherever they want it. I would like to hear from Amos or the Documentation crew @ zope.org. please give me your "input":http://www.wavplace.com/mov/input.wav back to adding content, ~runyaga
Fiona, Just looked at the zope.faqts.com site and think it looks like a good start. I have only recently started using zope, and I have been amazed at the steepness of the learning curve. Sometimes it feels like a solid and very vertical wall! There have been many times when a good faqts file would have been really useful. Thanks for your contribution. ciao! greg. Gregory Haley venaca.com Fiona Czuczman wrote:
Hi Alan,
A couple of weeks ago I wrote to the list regarding setting up a FAQ for zope. It is in the beginning stages ->
I've been busy so have only got so far as adding 11 questions.
Take a look at http://python.faqts.com to get an idea on how the zope knowledge base could be developed, it has taken me two months to get the python knowledge base to the level it is at now, more than 700 questions with answers. I'm developing the python list be summarizing the newsgroup daily, for zope I'm intending on also working on this daily. I had a major project which I finished about 2 hours ago :-) ... as a relief I decided to start on the zope work, where I've found your mail.
I'm not interested in creating something in direct opposition to what you are suggesting. Is there some way that we could work on this together, either together creating zope.faqts.com or my helping with http://www.zope.org/Members/runyaga/ZopeFAQs/FrontPage ?
Things I like about FAQTs
- the hierarchy of folders (information) - the ability to create folders and arrange content - the possibility to edit answers and maintain a version history - the admin stuff (for sending out summaries back to the mailing list) - ability to search questions and answers (works really well)
This work I am doing 'off my own bat', FAQTs does pay me for python but _not_ zope, so I am able to do it somewhere else. Because I already have a mode of working off the FAQTs site it seemed reasonable to start the zope knowledge base off that site. But, mails like yours make me think about fragmenting resources and how useless that is, especially now when it seems resources are limited.
Now, before I get too far into it, I want to make sure I've made the right decision... I don't want to compete with zdp.zope.org or with what you are suggesting.
So, I want to help but where?
Could we help each other: share questions and answers for all locations? Therefore taking advantage of the different features of the different sites?
Is that a ridiculous suggestion? Perhaps initially it would work ... later re-assess?
Otherwise, I'll work off whichever site the community would prefer... so community, please respond :-)
Thanks,
Fiona
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participants (3)
-
alan runyan -
Fiona Czuczman -
Gregory Haley