Re: [Zope] Python Zope Method as option for renamed Python Method?
Hamish Lawson <hamish_lawson@yahoo.co.uk> wrote
Python Zope Method Perl Zope Method SQL Zope Method DTML Zope Method Rebol Zope Method Java Zope Method VB Zope Method Custom Zope Mthod etc..
and perhaps let "Zope Method" become a "ZMethod", a bit shorter. oliver
On Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 05:08:13PM +0100, Oliver Bleutgen wrote:
Hamish Lawson <hamish_lawson@yahoo.co.uk> wrote
Python Zope Method Perl Zope Method SQL Zope Method DTML Zope Method Rebol Zope Method Java Zope Method VB Zope Method Custom Zope Mthod etc..
and perhaps let "Zope Method" become a "ZMethod", a bit shorter.
A winner by acclamation! Now, how about internal/external?
oliver
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jpenny@universal-fasteners.com wrote:
On Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 05:08:13PM +0100, Oliver Bleutgen wrote:
Hamish Lawson <hamish_lawson@yahoo.co.uk> wrote
Python Zope Method Perl Zope Method SQL Zope Method DTML Zope Method Rebol Zope Method Java Zope Method VB Zope Method Custom Zope Mthod etc..
and perhaps let "Zope Method" become a "ZMethod", a bit shorter.
A winner by acclamation!
Now, how about internal/external?
Safe and Flexible are probably more meaningful words there ;-) ZMethod is growing though ;-) how about: Python ZMethod (Safe) Python ZMethod (Flexible) :-) Chris
From: Chris Withers <chrisw@nipltd.com>
jpenny@universal-fasteners.com wrote:
Now, how about internal/external?
Safe and Flexible are probably more meaningful words there ;-)
ZMethod is growing though ;-)
We've pretty much settled on restricted/unrestricted here. In honor of the presidential Indecision 2000 race, we're seriously thinking about revamping and rerunning the poll, so ZMethod may well get its moment in the spotlight. Cheers, Evan @ digicool & 4-am
On Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 01:12:12PM -0500, Evan Simpson wrote:
From: Chris Withers <chrisw@nipltd.com>
jpenny@universal-fasteners.com wrote:
Now, how about internal/external?
Safe and Flexible are probably more meaningful words there ;-)
ZMethod is growing though ;-)
We've pretty much settled on restricted/unrestricted here. In honor of the presidential Indecision 2000 race, we're seriously thinking about revamping and rerunning the poll, so ZMethod may well get its moment in the spotlight.
Cheers,
Well, you guys are the Zen Masters of Zope. But, I am going to give one more attempt at explaining why this decision is lacking in enlightenment. The presumed audience of the terminology is newbies, not security managers. We want everyone, but newbies in particular, to use the restricted method whenever possible. But no newbie wants to be restricted/strait-jacketed/ 'kept from the cool stuff'. You are proposing a term with negative conotations for the option that we want people to prefer! Moreover, some meritorious suggestions for names were overruled for being too long, or hard to say. Unrestricted/Restricted fail this criterium also. Unrestricted Zope ZMethod (8 syllables, 26 letters) is quite a mouth full. I understand your reluctance for Safe, with its immediate antonym Unsafe. But, please find a positive term for the Restricted version. Perhaps Ordinary/Power, ''/Power, Ordinary/Super, ''/Super, Muggle/Wizard. [If you use Super, the documentation can begin: Stronger than a locomotive, able to leap strong buildings at a single bound, able to import any module, able to escape for a secure lockbox, a method with Super powers. But don't unleash this method without understanding it fully!] Damn, I am beginning to think that Tame Snake Thingy and Wild Snake Thingy are the best yet! Hoping this increases satori. Jim
Evan @ digicool & 4-am
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Evan Simpson <evan@4-am.com> wrote
Safe and Flexible are probably more meaningful words there ;-)
ZMethod is growing though ;-)
We've pretty much settled on restricted/unrestricted here. In honor of the presidential Indecision 2000 race, we're seriously thinking about revamping and rerunning the poll, so ZMethod may well get its moment in the spotlight.
lol Good news: 'ZMethod' is nice and 'sounds' good, however one says it. 'safe' / 'flexible' imho=nice ideam but a little too subjective, not informative enough 'restricted' / 'unrestricted' hmm.. better because more functional, but how about: 1. 'closed' / 'open' 2. 'builtin' / 'custom' 3. 'local' / 'custom' 4. 'client-side' / 'server-side' ??? - Jason
From: Jason Cunliffe <jasonic@nomadicsltd.com>
Good news: 'ZMethod' is nice and 'sounds' good, however one says it.
I agree, but then everyone around here thought that Zopelet was fairly unobjectionable, even though nobody really *liked* it.
1. 'closed' / 'open' 2. 'builtin' / 'custom' 3. 'local' / 'custom' 4. 'client-side' / 'server-side'
None of these characterize the fundamental difference between the two things. One applies security restrictions, the other doesn't. Other differences, such as web-editable/zodb-stored vs. filesystem-based are not fundamental. We are contemplating unrestricted code which would be stored in the zodb, and possibly remote-editable through a secure interface. From: <jpenny@universal-fasteners.com>
Presumably the focus here is on newbies, not security managers. No newbie will ever want to use a Restricted Python ZMethod. What newbie wants to be limited/strait-jacketed/'kept from the cool stuff'?
You are propsing a word with negative conotation for something that should be prefered! Yes, it is accurate, but that is beside the point.
The two varieties aren't competing, and we aren't trying to promote one over the other. If a newbie is willing to put up with the risks and awkwardness of the current unrestricted design simply because they sound "cooler", we don't need to stop them. The documentation will present the restricted type first and tout their advantages, but explain clearly when and why you would want to go to the trouble of going unrestricted.
Moreover, this also fails the concise/'easy to say' test that was used to kick out several other meritorius naming suggestions. Unrestricted Python ZMethod (8 syllables, 26 letters) is a mouthful!
True (although some of the alternatives base names were worse). Considering that there aren't (yet) other language variants, and that I would usually use the restricted kind, I would normally just say "ZMethod". Only if there were some potential confusion would I say "Unrestricted zmethod", or the full title. Cheers, Evan @ digicool & 4-am
On Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 06:13:54PM -0500, Evan Simpson wrote:
From: Jason Cunliffe <jasonic@nomadicsltd.com>
Good news: 'ZMethod' is nice and 'sounds' good, however one says it.
I agree, but then everyone around here thought that Zopelet was fairly unobjectionable, even though nobody really *liked* it.
From: <jpenny@universal-fasteners.com>
Presumably the focus here is on newbies, not security managers. No newbie will ever want to use a Restricted Python ZMethod. What newbie wants to be limited/strait-jacketed/'kept from the cool stuff'?
You are propsing a word with negative conotation for something that should be prefered! Yes, it is accurate, but that is beside the point.
The two varieties aren't competing, and we aren't trying to promote one over the other. If a newbie is willing to put up with the risks and awkwardness of the current unrestricted design simply because they sound "cooler", we don't need to stop them. The documentation will present the restricted type first and tout their advantages, but explain clearly when and why you would want to go to the trouble of going unrestricted.
There are several objections to this paragraph. Of course they are competing, for mindshare if nothing else. Newbies don't know risks. That is much of what makes them newbies. And it presupposes that the documentation exists, is obviously accessible to recent Zope converts, and is actually read before they 'Add a Method'. Also, with the 'Wild Snake Thingy edittable from the Web' paradigm, there is no awkwardness with which the user must put up.
Moreover, this also fails the concise/'easy to say' test that was used to kick out several other meritorius naming suggestions. Unrestricted Python ZMethod (8 syllables, 26 letters) is a mouthful!
True (although some of the alternatives base names were worse). Considering that there aren't (yet) > other language variants, and that I would usually use the restricted kind, I would normally just say "ZMethod". Only if there were some potential confusion would I say "Unrestricted zmethod", or the full title.
If you must do this, at least make it 'Python ZMethod' and 'Python ZMethod - Unrestricted'. As you have said above, the usual method will be normally pronounced 'ZMethod', or 'Python ZMethod', why not drop the silent Restricted? Also, I consider it important that the usual method appear first in the 'Add a Method' pulldown, which the above forces.
Cheers,
Evan @ digicool & 4-am
-----Original Message----- From: zope-admin@zope.org [mailto:zope-admin@zope.org]On Behalf Of Evan Simpson Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2000 6:14 PM To: zope@zope.org Cc: Jason Cunliffe; Oliver Bleutgen; Chris Withers; jpenny@universal-fasteners.com Subject: Re: [Zope] ZMethod (Safe)
Moreover, this also fails the concise/'easy to say' test that was used to kick out several other meritorius naming suggestions. Unrestricted Python ZMethod (8 syllables, 26 letters) is a mouthful!
True (although some of the alternatives base names were worse). Considering that there aren't (yet) other language variants, and that I would usually use the restricted kind, I would normally just say "ZMethod". Only if there were some potential confusion would I say "Unrestricted zmethod", or the full title.
Since you would normally *say* just ZMethod, I like the suggestion of using "Python ZMethod" and "Python ZMethod (Unrestricted)", vs. spelling out the (Restricted) in the first one. After all, are we going to have a "DTML ZMethod (Restricted)", or a "SQL ZMethod (Restricted)"? It make sense to keep the "normal" (restricted) methods, that will/should be used more often than not, labeled as plainly as possible. The unrestricted version could be the exception and labeled as such. For example, if we do decide to create an unrestricted DTML method, it would seem unnecessary to rename DTML ZMethod to include the restricted label. _______________________ Ron Bickers Logic Etc, Inc. rbickers@logicetc.com
From: Ron Bickers <rbickers@logicetc.com>
Since you would normally *say* just ZMethod, I like the suggestion of using "Python ZMethod" and "Python ZMethod (Unrestricted)", vs. spelling out the (Restricted) in the first one.
Good point. I'll shop this around and see what folks here think. Cheers, Evan @ digicool & 4-am
On Thu, 9 Nov 2000, Evan Simpson wrote:
From: Ron Bickers <rbickers@logicetc.com>
Since you would normally *say* just ZMethod, I like the suggestion of using "Python ZMethod" and "Python ZMethod (Unrestricted)", vs. spelling out the (Restricted) in the first one.
Good point. I'll shop this around and see what folks here think.
FWIW, I concur. --Jeff --- Jeff K. Hoffman 704.849.0731 x108 Chief Technology Officer mailto:jeff.hoffman@goingv.com Going Virtual, L.L.C. http://www.goingv.com/
On Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 05:48:22PM -0500, Jason Cunliffe wrote:
Evan Simpson <evan@4-am.com> wrote
Safe and Flexible are probably more meaningful words there ;-)
ZMethod is growing though ;-)
We've pretty much settled on restricted/unrestricted here. In honor of the presidential Indecision 2000 race, we're seriously thinking about revamping and rerunning the poll, so ZMethod may well get its moment in the spotlight.
lol
Good news: 'ZMethod' is nice and 'sounds' good, however one says it.
'safe' / 'flexible' imho=nice ideam but a little too subjective, not informative enough
'restricted' / 'unrestricted'
hmm.. better because more functional, but how about:
Yes, but drives people away from the prefered option. (restricted is prefered!)
1. 'closed' / 'open'
Both are equally open, especially in the new 'Wild Python Thingys are editable via the Web' paradigm.
2. 'builtin' / 'custom'
Both are custom.
3. 'local' / 'custom'
???
4. 'client-side' / 'server-side'
Both are server-side.
???
- Jason
On Wed, 8 Nov 2000, Evan Simpson wrote:
We've pretty much settled on restricted/unrestricted here. In honor of the presidential Indecision 2000 race, we're seriously thinking about revamping and rerunning the poll, so ZMethod may well get its moment in the spotlight.
Cheers,
Evan @ digicool & 4-am
Enough! Imagine you actually and really do change the name of Python Method or much worse the names of all XY Methods. Would that automatically change all the Guides, How-Tos, Tips, Books, Emails, Articles, Sourcecode and whatever it is we call Documentation? No it would not! I herewith predict that changing the method names will add a layer of confusion Zope just does not need. My 0.02, Stefan
participants (9)
-
Chris Withers -
Evan Simpson -
Evan Simpson -
Jason Cunliffe -
Jeff Hoffman -
jpenny＠universal-fasteners.com -
Oliver Bleutgen -
Ron Bickers -
Stefan H. Holek