I think there is just one word: Plone -- Andy McKay www.agmweb.ca ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Abraham" <chrisabraham@yahoo.com> To: <zope@zope.org> Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2002 2:51 PM Subject: [Zope] What New Zope Products & Python Extensions I HAVE to Try Right Away?

Zope Stars:

I have recently become laid-off and have some time to get up-to-date with all the cool new code out there that I can import or plop into my Products directory and I am asking the Main Corpus of the Zope Community to help me out.

I will try just about anything, but I am focusing these days on automating my little firm, so I am interested in Professional Services tools such as Groupware, Project Management, Timesheets, Time Management, the elusive Zope IMAP Client, etc...

Cheers,

Chris

===== -- chris abraham <chrisabraham@yahoo.com> +1 202-452-7442 tel po box 15163 washington, dc 20003-0163 +1 202-478-0276 fax

_______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )

On Thu, Sep 26, 2002 at 09:38:04AM -0400, Richard Sshebora wrote:

... Please respond with opinions,

Don't you prefer facts ?-) Jerome Alet

I don't know if such a doc exists, if it does you'll probably find it at http://plone.org/documentation/ Plone IMO basically *is* a very souped-up CMF. Its pretty flexible, pretty heavy, very pretty and you don't have to know very much to use it. Its got lots of features, its high profile and in these ways its kind of nice for the zope world in general because it has caught people's attention outside of the zope world in a positive way. it doesn't do all the things that Chris was looking for, i don't think it does any of them really? I would say its a bit more than just an example app, its something that works well and looks good right out of the box. <--> george donnelly - http://zettai.net/ - "We Love Newbies" :) Zope Hosting - Dynamic Website Design - Search Engine Promotion

From: Oliver Bleutgen <myzope@gmx.net>

I'm with Richard here. Until reading Andy's post, I had the vague impression that plone is a "graphically souped up" CMF, or an "example" application with some content_types added - please, I do not want to do unjustice to plone developers here, just trying to bring a point across.

I went to plone.org and didn't really find something which explained the added value relative to CMF - or at least the difference to CMF.

Is there such a document?

Some other useful links are: http://plone.org/Members/runyaga/presentations/OSCOM/index_html/view http://plone.org/Members/runyaga/Plone-Announcement.news/view Form validation and navigation tools: http://plone.org/Members/geoff/plone_forms_and_navigation/view I18N support: http://cvs.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/plone/CMFPlone/i18n/ Unfortuantely some of the other things like CMFTypes and solving the premature object creation haven't gotten the docs yet, we're getting there. And after customizing Plone for ZopeZen, I have to say its a lot better base to start with on anything CMF related. The skin is now a tenth of the size. -- Andy McKay www.agmweb.ca ----- Original Message ----- From: "Oliver Bleutgen" <myzope@gmx.net> Cc: <zope@zope.org> Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 7:19 AM Subject: plone "vs." CMF was (Re: [Zope] What New Zope...)

george donnelly wrote:

...

I don't know if such a doc exists, if it does you'll probably find it at

http://plone.org/documentation/

Plone IMO basically *is* a very souped-up CMF. Its pretty flexible, pretty heavy, very pretty and you don't have to know very much to use it. Its got lots of features, its high profile and in these ways its kind of nice for the zope world in general because it has caught people's attention outside of the zope world in a positive way.

it doesn't do all the things that Chris was looking for, i don't think it does any of them really?

I would say its a bit more than just an example app, its something that works well and looks good right out of the box.

Ok,

I went again to plone.org and found what I didn't see the first time, it's at http://plone.org/documentation/EuroPlonePresentation

Sorry, I just had looked at the introduction link, which is apparently targeted to another audience.

thanks, oliver

_______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )

Can you give me some more details on what you would like? What repetitive tasks are you referring to? (there are so many ;P) <--> george donnelly - http://zettai.net/ - "We Love Newbies" :) Zope Hosting - Dynamic Website Design - Search Engine Promotion

From: "Ausum Studio" <ausum_studio@hotmail.com>

In my humble opinion there's still room for a new general-purpose CMF skin that takes over the repetitive tasks during the skin customization process, without the usual constraints that come as a result of being template-based. Something like a skin-control layer that allows developers to focus on features rather on just code, but powerful enough to allow every level of per-case customization, when needed.

I agree that Plone has suceeded at driving people's attention to CMF/Zope, but from a developer point of view I should tell, IMHO again, Plone neither can be opposed to CMF, neither Plone is CMF. :)

Have folks looked at uPortal (www.ja-sig.org)? The model uPortal provides is one of Views arranged by Tabs; each View is composed of one or more Channels. A Channel can be thought of as a window to a particular web service (not uppercase Web Service, though certainly that is supported) such as, perhaps, an RSS feed. Tabs are typically arranged across the top of the browser window: 'Home', 'Campus', 'MyPortal' ... Clicking on a Tab brings into view a browser window of the channels that make up that View. Users have the option to create their own "MyPortal" view, placing on that page the channels they choose and arranging them in the order they choose. Individual channels can be opened/closed/deattached/minimized. I think the uPortal model is appealing, though pieces, such as the screens for setting MyPortal's organization, are klunky. If you attended last February's Python conference, maybe you saw the canned NATO demo? That was a sort-of uPortal-in-Zope design (with a really slick javascript-based MyPortal organizer tool that definitely one-ups uPortal's). anyway What I'd like to see in the CMF/Plone kit is some uPortal-like functionality. For example, once I, as regular joe-user, register with a site, I'd like to be able to arrange my home page as I see fit. Maybe put the Calendar "channel" on my home page at the top-left in place of the Merchandise "channel" ... 'course there's no real content management capabilities in uPortal and in a dozen other ways uPortal comes up short compared to Zope/CMF/Plone ... but it does demonstrate some cool ideas. --- Tim Lynch National Agriculture Library Beltsville, MD tlynch@nal.usda.gov

...

(...)

And after customizing Plone for ZopeZen, I have to say its a lot better base to start with on anything CMF related. The skin is now a tenth of the size. -- Andy McKay www.agmweb.ca

I like Plone's graphic design, but after diving into the guts of CMF's default skins and compare them to Plone's I still need to know whether Plone is much more than a set of templates over zpt templates, or not. (I must confess I haven't read any of the documentation but I did installed many of its releases including Andy's installer.)

When I look at Plone I see its graphic designer's decisions all over the site. Ok, I know I can chage many of them by modifying the stylesheet, but if want other kind of modifications, if I want to have the commands at different places than its defaults, for instance, I still need to perform them skin by skin, am I right?.

In my humble opinion there's still room for a new general-purpose CMF skin that takes over the repetitive tasks during the skin customization process, without the usual constraints that come as a result of being template-based. Something like a skin-control layer that allows developers to focus on features rather on just code, but powerful enough to allow every level of per-case customization, when needed.

I agree that Plone has suceeded at driving people's attention to CMF/Zope, but from a developer point of view I should tell, IMHO again, Plone neither can be opposed to CMF, neither Plone is CMF. :)

Ausum