Re: [Zope] A new list needed?
I'm somewhere between a novice and a Zopista, I suppose, so I imagine I am representative of the majority of the folks who hang out here. Speaking for me, I don't find either the volume or the level of the traffic on this list to be so onerous that it calls out for the creation of a second more technical list. And not to put too fine a point on it but to suggest not only that we need a new list where obviously experienced Zope developers like Mr. Bengtsson don't get "bugged" by people asking them to explain technical questions but that such a list should be closed smacks dangerously of elitism. The Zope community doesn't seem to me to be so large that segregating those "in the know" from those who are desperately trying to be "in the know" is a great idea. I may just be one of those people who "won't ever need to use" stuff I ask for more detail about, but I deeply appreciate the positive and helpful attitude exhibited by virtually everyone on this list when I even think I need such assistance. It's nice that people remember what was hard for them when they were starting out and are willing to help novices even if it takes a few extra minutes of time to do so. -- Learn to absorb information, internalize new ideas, and generate creative solutions three times faster, triple guaranteed! Ask me about Acccelerated Learning Plus! Free introductory lesson. dan@gui.com - 831-643-0590 (Voice) - 831-401-2531 (Fax)
+-------[ Dan Shafer ]---------------------- | | And not to put too fine a point on it but to suggest not only that we | need a new list where obviously experienced Zope developers like Mr. | Bengtsson don't get "bugged" by people asking them to explain | technical questions but that such a list should be closed smacks | dangerously of elitism. Actually that was me. And since you don't know me, or who I am, I'll let it pass. Closing the list means you have to be subscribed to post to it, not that you have to be invited to join. This prevents people from simply Cc:ing every zope list for answers. | The Zope community doesn't seem to me to be so large that segregating | those "in the know" from those who are desperately trying to be "in | the know" is a great idea. It isn't about seperating them, it's about distilling them. From what I can see, most of the tech people have gone somewhere else anyway. -- Totally Holistic Enterprises Internet| | Andrew Milton The Internet (Aust) Pty Ltd | | ACN: 082 081 472 ABN: 83 082 081 472 | M:+61 416 022 411 | Carpe Daemon PO Box 837 Indooroopilly QLD 4068 |akm@theinternet.com.au|
On Sat, 20 Oct 2001, Dan Shafer wrote:
I'm somewhere between a novice and a Zopista, I suppose, so I imagine I am representative of the majority of the folks who hang out here.
Speaking for me, I don't find either the volume or the level of the traffic on this list to be so onerous that it calls out for the creation of a second more technical list.
And not to put too fine a point on it but to suggest not only that we need a new list where obviously experienced Zope developers like Mr. Bengtsson don't get "bugged" by people asking them to explain technical questions but that such a list should be closed smacks dangerously of elitism.
The Zope community doesn't seem to me to be so large that segregating those "in the know" from those who are desperately trying to be "in the know" is a great idea.
I may just be one of those people who "won't ever need to use" stuff I ask for more detail about, but I deeply appreciate the positive and helpful attitude exhibited by virtually everyone on this list when I even think I need such assistance.
It's nice that people remember what was hard for them when they were starting out and are willing to help novices even if it takes a few extra minutes of time to do so.
Dan -- I think the question of closed lists has more to do w/ clueless commercial postings than excluding new users. I agree that having experienced users helping new users is a good thing, but honestly (falling more in the experienced camp than the new user camp), I do find the list traffic too overwhelming to read every day, or often even to scan every week, and therefore, I'll let it go for weeks at a time. If there were a place where I could catch the medium-level, technical, interesting questions that affected my level of Zope learning, I'd have more incentive to read & contribute. As it is now, I do find myself gravitating more toward ZopeZen, ZopeLabs, and other places that offer useful ideas to me than the ML. And I think that the best web-based discussion board in the universe sucks compared to email lists or newsgroup lists in terms of speed, searchability and interface, so this is a Bad Thing. Something to give intermediate/advanced users a place to think and work doesn't seem elitism as it does sensible. -- Joel BURTON | joel@joelburton.com | joelburton.com | aim: wjoelburton Independent Knowledge Management Consultant
My humble opinion is that the amount of relatively simple & repeating questions on this list is caused by: a) shortage of documentation, a lack of a complete Zope reference in particular. And possibly a FAQ or several topical FAQs could do good b) little (not enough) visibility of the existing documentation, and absence of it in the Zope installation package itself. -- Ivan
Being a non-so-developer type myself and not being too good with python yet, I had said the same thing myself. But truth is, its all there in some place or another. Finding it is the difficult part because the really technical information lies in documents with slightly ambiguous names. Who would thing that AppendixB.dtml was going to teach me how to resize an image using <dtml-var "ImageObject.tag(width=yadda)">? But something I think may be nice, but perhaps is already here. Is there a Code Collector that we can read/submit submissions of coding (dtml and python)? I stumbled upon a site somewhere that had something like it and then I lost the link. However, it only had 3 entries at the time. For those of us that struggle at first with Zope syntax and language, code snippets are the very best thing to learn from. Its frustrating to know how something is done, but have to ask a question on the list that verifies you missed something simple because the answer was as stupid as the question, once its worked out. Paul Zwarts pLinks http://24.132.28.112 -----Original Message----- From: zope-admin@zope.org [mailto:zope-admin@zope.org] On Behalf Of Ivan Kurmanov Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2001 6:00 PM To: zope@zope.org Subject: Re: [Zope] A new list needed? My humble opinion is that the amount of relatively simple & repeating questions on this list is caused by: a) shortage of documentation, a lack of a complete Zope reference in particular. And possibly a FAQ or several topical FAQs could do good b) little (not enough) visibility of the existing documentation, and absence of it in the Zope installation package itself. -- Ivan _______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
My guess is that I am considered a "noise-maker" by some on the list. I agree with Ivan's post as to part of the problem. I have benefited from responses of more experienced users, including Andrew, and have been stopped from jumping off the Zope cliff with some of their encouragement "that it will get easier one day". For that I am "grateful" (most days ;) It is despicable that anyone is personally attacked in such a small community for wanting to advance the Zope cause by better organizing communication. My message follows these topics. A -- my rules as a newbie (Zope docs suck when you cant find the answer yourself) B -- benefits of a newbie list (fix Zope to reduce the noise) C -- categories for a Squishdot type system D -- types of Newbies (HUGE DISPARITY) A> ---- I formed my own rules before I post anything to the list. This may be the foundation of Newbie etiquette that someone might want to post as a general guide of participation when subscribing. If I run into a problem. 1. Scan Zope-shelf for the keyword in any of the Zope docs (Zope book, Zope Dev, Zope Admin, etc)(i am a zopeshelf addict) 2. search zope.org for the keyword (read all remotely related how-tos) 3. search mail archives (a mostly worthless interface IMO, because it doesn't display threads well, and many posted Q's go unanswered) 4. Determine if I could use a related keyword and start research over ***The only exception is when I have panicked over SiteAccess issues and locked myself out of Zope. Then I feel I can post a basic newbie Q. Sometimes this process can take a couple days to exhaust my research. And I get really pissed at Zope and documentation if I cant find what I think is a basic answer, and have to post to the list. (THIS IS WHY I INCLUDED IVAN's POST) B> --- I dont have a problem posting my q's to a zope-newbie list. ***This could be a useful resource in the future for the community and Zope-devers to correct some of the stupid things that consistently trip up newbies. If the same "qualified" Q's are asked all the time, that is a problem with Zope, not newbies. My concern is that I have stumbled on several "basic" Zope deficiencies that even experienced developers were not able to answer quickly. In my quest for Zen, I consider the quirkiness and undocumented syntaxes part of the magic that you only acquire thru the Zope experience. my bad example: I am still perplexed why the default index_html created with a folder is not a DTMLMethod. If newbies assume that the ZMI will provide the most used scenarios, then this basic "hello world" step misleads newbies in almost every instance and creates a misunderstanding of acquisition immediately. And there is not enough emphasis to direct newbies to writing Python scripts early in the game. As Ivan suggested, part of the problem with the noise, is that basic answers are hard to find. As far as a Squishdot-type Zope board... Here are the categories that I use so far to organize my journey. Installing Zope, maintaining Zope, version issues Zope/DTML Basics Python Scripting External Methods ZClasses - Internal Products External Products SiteAccess related ZPT CMF Session Tracking As you can see I am missing ZEO, reading the source, user management, and more advanced topics. D> -- I see part of the problem with the community is with the "HUGE" disparity in the definition of a newbie and the source of some frustrations. Types of Newbies (everyone using Zope for the first time): 1- those that only knew HTML/CSS and attracted to Zope to build a better website (DTML and ZClasses makes them really dangerous because they will mix logic and presentation) 2- those that use ASP or ColdFusion environments so have some programming experience (Python scripts and ZPT make them dangerous because they can separate logic from presentation) 3- experienced developers that know VB, PERL, Java and SQL/db already (building External products that are truly portable makes them dangerous) 4- those that also know C and python and study the Zope source for their answers (they are already dangerous, and should help improve Zope's core) -Trevor
My humble opinion is that the amount of relatively simple & repeating questions on this list is caused by:
a) shortage of documentation, a lack of a complete Zope reference in particular. And possibly a FAQ or several topical FAQs could do good
b) little (not enough) visibility of the existing documentation, and absence of it in the Zope installation package itself.
-- Ivan
_______________________________________________ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
participants (6)
-
Andrew Kenneth Milton -
Dan Shafer -
Ivan Kurmanov -
Joel Burton -
Paul Zwarts -
Trevor Toenjes